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4 years ago ::
Feb 06, 2009 - 6:27PM
#41
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- Stampeding Hybrid
- Dragon Slayer
Date Joined:
Aug 19, 2007
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Although that is true, the idea that evil deity's roam around at the levels we've seen them at whilst good deity's of power exceeding them by more than 5 levels exist is rather ridiculous. Evil deity's don't protect each other, so why shouldn't Bahamut and Moradin get together and kill Tiamat so that Bahamut can do his job unperturbed? It's just an example, but you can see the various similar situations all around.
Have we actually seen any good dieties that are five levels higher than any evil dieties? So far I believe we have an evil demigod at 32, two evil dieties at 35, one good diety who is theoretically level 37-38, and one evil diety who is theoretically 39-40. I realize that there are a lot of dieties left to be statted out, but I doubt that there will be too much favor for the good aligned dieties in the long run as far as levels go. Besides killing a diety requires you to overcome discorporation. Maybe the good dieties just don't know how to permenantly kill any of the remaining evil dieties.
Sorry to say that but this makes no sense at all, to me, at least. Just because 4e stats represent combat abilities exclusively doesn't mean that the war gods are the most powerful or even among the most powerful deities floating around. And even less sense if you put in martial gods. I mean why should a 'martial god' necessarily be more powerful than a 'non-martial god' or 'arcane god'? It's a little bit controversial since battling with martial abilities isn't the only way of participating in combat.
Anyway, lvl 38 would be the lvl I placed Bane, too. Well, of course, the FR Bane 
I would imagine that "martial" gods would be more powerful simply because they would have more followers and worshipers. It could obviously be different in different campaigns, but I think it is safe to say that a large percentage of the population in most worlds would be using the martial power source(well assuming that they even get up to the point of utilizing a power source). I mean which is easier, throwing armor on a person and teaching him to swing a weapon or teaching a person how to tell physics to shut up and sit in the corner?
Heck even non-martial characters would have a tendancy in certain circumstances to worship those dieties because they tend to be the ones associated with victory in war.
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4 years ago ::
Feb 06, 2009 - 7:50PM
#42
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Date Joined:
Apr 10, 2006
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I have a program someone put on enworld a few months ago that builds monsters...I show you now why it is not good to have this high level a monster New Monster Level 38 Solo Soldier
Medium immortal humanoid XP 395,000
Initiative +26 Senses Perception +22
HP 1845; Bloodied 922
AC 58; Fortitude 52, Reflex 54, Will 52
Saving Throws +5
Speed 6
Action Points 2
M basic attack (standard; at will)
+45 vs. AC; 3d8 + 10 damage
Alignment Any Languages
Str 27 (+27) Dex 25 (+26) Wis 17 (+22)
Con 18 (+23) Int 15 (+21) Cha 16 (+22)
refrence tiamat: AC 51; Fortitude 51, Refl ex 48, Will 49
ref2 : vecna AC 49; Fortitude 49, Refl ex 47, Will 51
Before posting, ask yourself WWWS: What Would Wrecan Say?
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4 years ago ::
Feb 06, 2009 - 10:31PM
#43
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I dont mean to sound condescending to the post above me, but really what does the ridiculous stats have to do with not stating him?
If thats how a 38 solo is going to be, thats how its going to be. That doesnt make it unbeatable, just really intimidating.
Theres no reason why a DM couldnt make an artifact that while held by someone with a divine power source applies a -5 to all defenses against whatever. Or if your lucky enough to have a group of 6 or more people a straight up fight.
There are a multitude of powers that work well in conjunction with one another, remember penalties stack! So there isnt a reason a well prepared team couldnt find a way to reduce his defenses from impossible to tough. So yeah he is probably going to hit every time, but whats wrong with that? Hes a god after all. Yeah, people are probably going to die, but most epic destinies have ways to rez in combat (multiple times even), and even in the event of a character death raise dead ritual is chump change.
Even if its a TPK what better way is there than to go down fighting a greater god, maybe even bloodying him before hand, thats an accomplishment. Really by level 30 your left with two options, retire the character by fulfilling his destiny or by going down in a blaze of glory trying to sweep evil from the land.
I would say based on these facts having the stats is by far better than not having. You can ignore what you dont want to use.
As a side note, I dont want to pay 8 bucks a month for fluff. I make up my own fluff just fine, no balancing required.
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4 years ago ::
Feb 06, 2009 - 10:45PM
#44
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Date Joined:
Oct 11, 2006
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Seriously. For the 2-3 campaigns in which it might come up, it would take nearly no effort at all to extrapolate 38th-40th level stats based on the Centurion and Imperator. Or, even more appropriately, you would develop the story in such a way that the final confrontation is on the heroes' terms (perhaps through the blessing or aid of another divine being or the use of a relic or an appeal to the god's twisted sense of honor) and downgrade Bane to a more manageable threat.
Instead of people focusing on how to use the material we got, this thread turned into a "Bad DM Convention" pretty quickly. If you need the stats, do it. If you're not willing or able to put together your BBEG for a so-called "epic confrontation" then you don't have a lot of room to throw stones. It looks to me like people are just complaining because they need/want something to complain about. Errata? Please. That's a bit dramatic (plus, even if it were included it wouldn't technically be errata anyways, because its not a mistake. They just didn't include what you wanted). And if you're willing to do all the work to break the game out of the 30-level box, writing up a stat block is the least of your worries.
If you like high level stat-blocks, that's fine. I like them myself, if only because I enjoy being able to compare and contrast godlike powers. I don't think anyone here really believes that there won't eventually be a Deities and Demigods style book at some point. That's a cash-cow that's gotta be milked every edition, and I can't imagine that 4e will be any different. But to act like that stuff "has to be included" is absurd. Most people, even the people who actually like reading that kind of stuff, will never ever use it.
I don't simply "like" high level stat-blocks, I actually PLAN on using them. I understand that perhaps you may not know anyone who is interested in said stat blocks, but personally, even before they were introduced way back when the core books released, I was planning on statting out the deities. Then WotC decided they were going to go ahead and do it themselves, so now, for the sake of continuity, I'd like to know where every deity stands statistically.
At the very least, some concrete page explaining what every deity's level is, since apparently WotC's pantheon is far more diverse statistically than what I had envisioned. I personally expected all of the gods to sit between levels 35 - 38. With that alone, I could make my own stat blocks to sit in line with future releases
For the record, if you name an article after a god, right after having set a precedent for stat blocks for gods, it would be absurd for the readers to expect the god to be missing from the article,  .
I'm sure the word count isn't the reason the stats were excluded. Building stats--good stats--for a god is probably one of the most daunting parts of writing an article like this.
I'd rather have no stats than stats that are merely an afterthought. Doing them this way allows the writers to approach the problem when they have the time budget and epic-tier experience to do a real bang-up job.
It's just a stat block, not a fully fledged article. The rest is already there. Not to mention they have the precedent set with his Aspects, which means it wouldn't be very difficult or lengthy to do. And before you ask, I'm not doing it myself because once again, I'd like to know what level he supposedly is; apparently WotC thinks hes so high level they shouldn't put his stat bock in his very own article. If his stat block is for a later book (like they did with Baphomet's article), at least let us know.
Have we actually seen any good dieties that are five levels higher than any evil dieties? So far I believe we have an evil demigod at 32, two evil dieties at 35, one good diety who is theoretically level 37-38, and one evil diety who is theoretically 39-40. I realize that there are a lot of dieties left to be statted out, but I doubt that there will be too much favor for the good aligned dieties in the long run as far as levels go. Besides killing a diety requires you to overcome discorporation. Maybe the good dieties just don't know how to permenantly kill any of the remaining evil dieties.
I was responding with the notion that you had read mouseferatu's post thoroughly. He pretty much outright said that more than one god would be at the level they supposedly believe Bane is in and therefore none of those gods would be getting stat blocks because quote "those stats don't serve any purpose". Something which honestly irked me a helluva lot, because I know for a fact that there's plenty of homebrews out there that could use that stat block if their campaign, mod, or delve called for it.
The printed rules are not the limits of DM imagination, so if WotC wants to go ahead and take a specific thing away from DM's (like creating homebrewed god stats from scratch), then at least they should finish the job thoroughly (especially when they plan whole articles around that very thing).
I have a program someone put on enworld a few months ago that builds monsters...I show you now why it is not good to have this high level a monster
refrence tiamat: AC 51; Fortitude 51, Refl ex 48, Will 49
ref2 : vecna AC 49; Fortitude 49, Refl ex 47, Will 51
Not good for whom may I ask? Maybe not good for min/maximizers which always want to be in complete control of their characters possibilities at all times. Ask my players though and they'll outright tell you they would love to see more god stats.
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4 years ago ::
Feb 06, 2009 - 10:46PM
#45
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Date Joined:
Apr 10, 2006
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I will put this in a ltlittle perspective for you AC 58; Fortitude 52, Reflex 54, Will 52 so you need a +39 to hit that AC on anything but a 20...or penlties to match... swordmage/kensi/demigod +3 prof...+15 level...(start 20 Int +8 levels +2 demigod) +10 ablitiy score +6 magic weapon (gith silver sword)...+2 opel ring (adventures vault) +1 Head band int... +1 kensi pp...= +38...still need 20's to hit rouge/kensi/demigod +3 prof +15 level +10 ability score +6 dagger +1 class +1 kensi +2 combat advantage... is +38...peirceing strike is vs ref...so hit on a 17+... yea that seams doable...  I dont mean to sound condescending to the post above me, but really what does the ridiculous stats have to do with not stating him?
those base line stat show it is almost impossble of a fight...and is well outside of 4e's window of math...why stat something just to say "You lose" when you save room by just saying "you lose"
Before posting, ask yourself WWWS: What Would Wrecan Say?
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4 years ago ::
Feb 06, 2009 - 10:50PM
#46
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Date Joined:
Apr 10, 2006
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Not good for whom may I ask? Maybe not good for min/maximizers which always want to be in complete control of their characters possibilities at all times. Ask my players though and they'll outright tell you they would love to see more god stats.
this is going to sound odd...but I agree...I too would love to see them...but I see also why we aren't...if we are just talking want...I say statt hem all...but from a mechanics and system point of view I don't think it is worth it for them...
Before posting, ask yourself WWWS: What Would Wrecan Say?
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4 years ago ::
Feb 06, 2009 - 11:12PM
#47
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Date Joined:
Oct 11, 2006
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this is going to sound odd...but I agree...I too would love to see them...but I see also why we aren't...if we are just talking want...I say statt hem all...but from a mechanics and system point of view I don't think it is worth it for them...
Their statting out aspects already so come on; it can't be that much harder to slap the real deity's level on it, scale it, and add a few (usually a couple) of the real deity's special abilities. I mean seriously, we're PAYING for this stuff. If they can't even do that much, then why do we continue to pay for it? Some people want it, some people don't care for it (that's fine). Since this game is built on the premise that if you don't want to use it, you simply don't, then all WotC needs is a few people that want it to have a need to make it.
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4 years ago ::
Feb 06, 2009 - 11:57PM
#48
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Rutilus, my friend, you have just entered the slippery slope fallacy: *If they can't stat monsters above level 35, then there is no reason to continue paying them. - I can think up of 30 levels worth of reasons why we should continue paying them. *All WotC needs is a few people to want it to have a need to make it - A company that caters to a large consumer base would not want to make a product that only apeals to a small percentage of that population, much less need to. Don't get me wrong, I'm on the same boat with you here, my friend. I would have enjoyed a full statblock for Bane as well. However, let me point out something else that you said;
Their statting out aspects already so come on; it can't be that much harder to slap the real deity's level on it, scale it, and add a few (usually a couple) of the real deity's special abilities.
You know what, you're right. It can't be too hard. in fact, I can probably do it myself in 30 minutes. So can you, I'd imagine. So I don't see an actual problem here. They didn't make stats for Bane, but he gave us, those who really want it, a means to make him ourselves if we want to. :D
Me Kruzko, me bard... And me sing song for you! Explore Philippine Mythology for your 4E game, and visit us at Nosfecatu Publishing!
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4 years ago ::
Feb 07, 2009 - 1:46AM
#49
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Date Joined:
Jun 10, 2002
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I would have liked to see a fully statted Bane, but that's a minor quibble. The article is fantastic, and I hope that there are many more to come. If you're taking requests: please think of doing one of the brand new gods next. Also: many of the gods overlap between PoL and FR, and while a simple X vs. X sidebar perfectly suffice (like the Bane vs. Bane sidebar did), a slightly longer sidebar might be needed when the two gods are more distinct. For example: Corellon is Unaligned in PoL but Good in FR, and so a brief note on how to make Corellon Good if need be would be something to consider.
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4 years ago ::
Feb 07, 2009 - 2:26AM
#50
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Date Joined:
Apr 21, 2001
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I'm wondering if anyone here has run a 35th level solo vs. a party of 30th level PCs. The PCs do not fare well very often. If you go all out on them the God/Primordial splats at least 2/5 characters, if not a full on TPK. I've only seen Tiamat defeated once thus far and she's TPKed the entire party every other time.
So anything above 35 really doesn't need stats, PCs are so unlikely to hit them and they can stay in the fight long enough that they will grind PCs down into dirt (especially if they are well designed). Remember that if bane is level 38 and a solider, he'll have an AC of around 56 or something like this (maybe more). Effectively ensuring that he's going to be impossible to hit. You may think it's "epic" but your PCs won't think it's epic to miss 90% of the time and then get unceremoniously splattered.
The article is pretty good though, but I must wonder why there wasn't at least more of a sidebar explaining how the FR bane was different. That would have been nice, but sadly wasn't included. None the less, much of the stuff in there was quite usable and it's good too see a non-mechanics focused article once in a while.
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