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Switch to Forum Live View Dragon 368- Playtest: The Barbarian
5 years ago  ::  Nov 06, 2008 - 5:47AM #131
Douglas_Zuver
Date Joined: Jan 30, 2005
Posts: 2,601
I like most of the Barbarian so far.

The Dailies being Rages seems like a good thing and gives flavor to the class.

I feel that Rage Strike is confusing and not worth using since it expends Dailies that are essential to be used one per encounter. It is working in direct contradiction to the Flavor of the Daily Rages.

The idea is fine, the mechanics could be changed.
Hence I would recommend rewriting Rage Strike as follows:

Class Features

Rage Strike Barbarian Feature

You channel your primal rage to hit harder than normal.

Encounter <> Primal, Weapon

Minor Action Melee Weapon

Requirement: You must be raging to use this feature.

Effect: Whether you hit or miss with your next Primal weapon attack, do 1[W] damage to one creature that was targeted by this attack.

Special: This must be used by the end of your next turn. The creature damaged must be within reach of your melee weapon.
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5 years ago  ::  Nov 06, 2008 - 6:25AM #132
urzafrank
Date Joined: Jun 18, 2003
Posts: 448

Douglas Zuver wrote:

I like most of the Barbarian so far.

The Dailies being Rages seems like a good thing and gives flavor to the class.

I feel that Rage Strike is confusing and not worth using since it expends Dailies that are essential to be used one per encounter. It is working in direct contradiction to the Flavor of the Daily Rages.

The idea is fine, the mechanics could be changed.
Hence I would recommend rewriting Rage Strike as follows:

Class Features

Rage Strike Barbarian Feature

You channel your primal rage to hit harder than normal.

Encounter <> Primal, Weapon

Minor Action Melee Weapon

Requirement: You must be raging to use this feature.

Effect: Whether you hit or miss with your next Primal weapon attack, do 1[W] damage to one creature that was targeted by this attack.

Special: This must be used by the end of your next turn. The creature damaged must be within reach of your melee weapon.


That seems very nice. However all the other classes have the ability to use multiple daily powers in one fight and some times that is taken in to account in how hard a fight is designed. That is the only reason Rage Strike was added to the class was to make sure that the Barbarian was not lacking that very important choice. So when you alter Rage Strike you then have to add something or you will make them much less effective by paragon levels where when you have 3 daily powers and the DM know this is the only fight that day and as such put it at the upper limit of ahard fight. So as opposed to ignoring that part of the design does any one have any ideas on how to keep the aspect when they change Rage Strike.

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5 years ago  ::  Nov 06, 2008 - 6:27AM #133
Ranadiel
  • Stampeding Hybrid
  • Dragon Slayer
Date Joined: Aug 19, 2007
Posts: 3,139

Douglas Zuver wrote:

I like most of the Barbarian so far.

The Dailies being Rages seems like a good thing and gives flavor to the class.

I feel that Rage Strike is confusing and not worth using since it expends Dailies that are essential to be used one per encounter. It is working in direct contradiction to the Flavor of the Daily Rages.

The idea is fine, the mechanics could be changed.
Hence I would recommend rewriting Rage Strike as follows:

Class Features

Rage Strike Barbarian Feature

You channel your primal rage to hit harder than normal.

Encounter <> Primal, Weapon

Minor Action Melee Weapon

Requirement: You must be raging to use this feature.

Effect: Whether you hit or miss with your next Primal weapon attack, do 1[W] damage to one creature that was targeted by this attack.

Special: This must be used by the end of your next turn. The creature damaged must be within reach of your melee weapon.


That defeats the whole purpose of Rage Strike. The idea is so that the Barbarian can maintain the rage he wants to when forced into nova circumstances.

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5 years ago  ::  Nov 06, 2008 - 4:49PM #134
Douglas_Zuver
Date Joined: Jan 30, 2005
Posts: 2,601
Perhaps something that automatically scales for a bigger encounter like this?


Class Features

Rage Strike Barbarian Feature

You channel your primal rage to hit harder than normal.

Encounter <> Primal, Weapon

Minor Action Melee Weapon

Requirement: You must be raging to use this feature.

Effect: Whether you hit or miss with your next Primal weapon attack, do 1[W] damage to one creature that was targeted by this attack. If the creature is an elite monster increase this to 2[W], and if the creature if a solo monster increase this to 3[W].

Special: This must be used by the end of your next turn. The creature damaged must be within reach of your melee weapon.
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5 years ago  ::  Nov 06, 2008 - 4:50PM #135
Douglas_Zuver
Date Joined: Jan 30, 2005
Posts: 2,601
Really what is going on here is typical of any design process.

You brainstorm for ideas; you take the best ones and work on them.
Eventually, some of the ideas need to change to mesh with the other ideas.
Once in a great while, two of your idea become on a collision course with each other.
This is what has happened with the Barbarian character, and that might be why more play-testing is needed compared with the Bard which is looking pretty good right now.

The Rage Strike features says, hey you can have this ‘broken’ attack if don’t mind burning up all your dailies in a single battle.
And it is very strong.
Compare it to a normal daily attack.
What do you see?
A fifth level Rogue attack does 2[W] damage (+2d6 with CA) and this does 4[W] damage.
A ninth level Rogue attack does 3[W] damage (+2d6 with CA) and this does 5[W] damage.
A fifteenth level Rogue attack does 3[W] damage (or 5[W] if bloodied) (+3d6 with CA) and this does 6[W] damage
A nineteenth level Rogue attack does 6[W] damage (+3d6 with CA) and this does 7[W] damage.

All in all it is a very simple flavored attack. You use your first daily, then you attack once or twice more with Rage Strike. The rest of day, you don’t rage at all. This design assumes that a Barbarian is even tempered most of the day and goes wild with rage once in a great while.

On the hand, another design features many various interesting bonuses and abilities surrounding rage. These little features are flavorful and even built into some of the basic at-will attacks. You “Rage early and often” as is promoted for the barbarian. This design assumes that a Barbarian will want to go into a rage early during many encounters.

Now choices are good if they are not as difficult as this one is. A player is faced with the fact that he/she must decided a certain style of play over another without taking advantage of both. The player can save all the dailies up, not knowing what is next and not enjoying all those favor things that have been added. Or the player can rage at the start of each encounter and endure the criticism of other players who feel that the player should be taking the more “broken?” route.

This brings problems to the DM as well. Knowing what is happening, the DM must calculate whether his climatic battle will quickly be brought to an end with a saved up Barbarian Rage Strike. This forces the DM to up the odds and possibly bring out more powerful monsters than the party can handle. And what happens when the Barbarian uses his dailies on something other than a climactic battle or the Player decides to try the other route for fun? Then the DM must adjust the encounter again.

Yes, it is true that player might like to save up their dailies for a bigger battle, but that does not mean that all characters should do this. The Barbarian might intentionally be made an exception to this rule, and that alone would make more interesting.

That is why I separated Rage Strike from its connect to the Daily Powers and why I think it should be an at-will, encounter, or daily class feature of its own. This grants the players the ability to enjoy all that hard work put into flavorful rages that seems well thought out.
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5 years ago  ::  Nov 06, 2008 - 6:29PM #136
Ranadiel
  • Stampeding Hybrid
  • Dragon Slayer
Date Joined: Aug 19, 2007
Posts: 3,139

Douglas Zuver wrote:

Perhaps something that automatically scales for a bigger encounter like this?


Class Features

Rage Strike Barbarian Feature

You channel your primal rage to hit harder than normal.

Encounter <> Primal, Weapon

Minor Action Melee Weapon

Requirement: You must be raging to use this feature.

Effect: Whether you hit or miss with your next Primal weapon attack, do 1[W] damage to one creature that was targeted by this attack. If the creature is an elite monster increase this to 2[W], and if the creature if a solo monster increase this to 3[W].

Special: This must be used by the end of your next turn. The creature damaged must be within reach of your melee weapon.


Players shouldn't be required to know if a creature is elite or solo just to be able to use an ability properly. While I'm sure in some campaigns DMs freely tell their players that info, there are also campaigns where the players feel that knowing that kind of information ruins the feeling of the game. So forcing players to know that information is bad design.

Additionally it doesn't help the barbarian nova any more. Rage strike exists solely for the purpose of letting the barbarian nova if it wants to. It might not be the best option that the barbarian has, but that is the reason. If we are going to be removing rage strike's ability to let barbarians nova, then we might as well just get rid of it entirely.

Also my apologies if you addressed any of these issues in your second post, but it is long and I am in a slight rush at the moment.

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5 years ago  ::  Nov 07, 2008 - 11:12AM #137
Douglas_Zuver
Date Joined: Jan 30, 2005
Posts: 2,601
Time is precious, that is so true.
What I have already said should suffice.
I will not repeat what I have already wrote, because you would have twice as much to read later on…


About identifying Solo monsters:
Page 26 of the DMG has a section titled “Informing Players”.
It is good reading.

While it does not specifically discuss whether a DM should give clues when a monster is a minion, elite, or solo monster, the text does imply that sometime during the encounter a DM should supply this information to the players. “…You should, however, give enough information that the players know what’s up and have an idea what to do-and what not to do.”

If one is really into D&D realism, them a minion would appear weaker in some way to character who is very skilled in fighting. An elite monster would appear more tough or strong or skillful or commanding. A solo monster should be described as being very formidable in some fashion or another. Having no clues as to whether a creature is a minion or a solo monster sounds very unrealistic to me. These clues might not come right away, but they should be there.

The DM is the eyes and ears of the players, if you don’t tell them enough to feel like they are seeing and hearing what is going on, the game will not come alive.

Of particular interest is the section on ‘“Gotcha!” Abilities’ and how a DM is responsible to convey this information to the players in the form of clues. Also, the section on “Game States, Conditions, and Effects” is interesting as well. The information there implies things too.

During some of the Podcasts and during the Podcast video, WotC staff members did give clues or plainly say whether a monster was elite or a minion. This was sometimes provided at first and sometimes provided after a round or two.

I do feel that damage increases based on whether a monster is elite or solo could be a good mechanic for WotC to consider in the future. These monsters have higher defenses and considerably more hp. They can afford slightly higher damage done to them.

There could be other ways to handle this as well.
No need to toss an interesting design completely away.
Rage Strike could also simply be changed to a Daily Power:


Rage Strike     Barbarian Feature

You channel your primal rage into a devastating attack.

Daily <> Primal, Weapon

Standard Action       Melee
Weapon

Requirement: You must be raging.

Target: One Creature

Attack: Strength vs. AC

Hit: You deal damage based on your level:
1st level     3[W] + Strength modifier
5th level     4[W] + Strength modifier
9th level     5[W] + Strength modifier
15th level     6[W] + Strength modifier
19th level     7[W] + Strength modifier
25th level     8[W] + Strength modifier
29th level     9[W] + Strength modifier
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5 years ago  ::  Nov 07, 2008 - 5:19PM #138
Haldrik
Date Joined: Jan 2, 2004
Posts: 9,403
These numbers (9[W]??) seem way overpowered.

Probably, Heroic [W], Paragon 2[W], and Epic 3[W] - in addition to the normal attack - is more than enough for Rage Strike.
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5 years ago  ::  Nov 07, 2008 - 5:33PM #139
Haldrik
Date Joined: Jan 2, 2004
Posts: 9,403
It probably makes more sense to just make Rage Strike a normal Daily power with a "Special" description - rather than a class feature. That way, Rage Strike is irrelevant and unmentioned until the Barb is hi enough level to pick up some extra Daily powers. In other words, the Barb wont get it until em can use it.

Maybe all Barb Dailies can require the Barb to be Raging, but any Daily power can be expended to induce a Rage. That way, more than one Daily gives the Barb a variety of things to do while Raging, and a choice of expending the Daily that seems least useful in a particular encounter.
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5 years ago  ::  Nov 08, 2008 - 9:09AM #140
Douglas_Zuver
Date Joined: Jan 30, 2005
Posts: 2,601
@Haldrik: So, were you thinking maybe like this?


Class Features

Rage Strike Barbarian Feature

You channel your primal rage to hit harder than normal.

Encounter <> Primal, Weapon

Minor Action Melee Weapon

Requirement: You must be raging to use this feature.

Effect: Whether you hit or miss with your next Primal weapon attack, do 1[W] damage to one creature that was targeted by this attack. Increase to 2[W] damage at 11th level and 3[W] damage at 21st level.

Special: This must be used by the end of your next turn. The creature damaged must be within reach of your melee weapon.
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