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4 years ago ::
Jul 10, 2009 - 9:00AM
#71
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Magazine content is theoretically mostly based on third party submission but if you look down the author list of previous articles there's a high proportion of content from those already "in the club" (which makes sense, there's nothing wrong with an editor relying mainly on proven talent over newcomers).
Most of our published adventures/articles come from freelancers. We publish the best of what we receive. Occasionally we assign adventures/articles rather than pull them out of the "submissions pile." (The Scales of War adventures are assigned.) These assignments typically go to established freelancers who've consistently delivered the goods and with whom we've built excellent professional relationships.
I decided to see which statement was true, or more true. I’ve often called the magazines an “in house product” so it’s good to check/back-up your statements.
So there’s *roughly* 39 adventures in Dungeon from a quick scan. I tried not to include side-treks/excerpts but I’m sure some snuck in.
I also ran some of the names not outright listed through http://www.pen-paper.net to be thorough.
10/39 have been written by authors credited as developers or designers of 4e.
13/39 have been written by authors credited on WotC 4e books.
11/39 have been written by authors credited on WotC 3e books.
3/39 have been written by authors only credited with past Dungeon articles
1/39 was written by Kevin Kulp, who is a moderator at EN world and has been long involved with the game.
1/39 was written by Sean Molley who was involved in the RPGA and Living Arcanis
So, 34/39 have been written by people credited in an official published D&D book and/or have been on WotC’s payroll.
That’s 87%.
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4 years ago ::
Jul 10, 2009 - 10:47AM
#72
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So, 34/39 have been written by people credited in an official published D&D book and/or have been on WotC’s payroll.
That’s 87%.
And some are still freelancers. For example Kieth Baker is credited with both 3.5e and 4e books but is still a freelancer. Also if they use to be an employee of WotC but were let go during the rounds of layoffs they are freelancers.
I haven't looked through the list of names nor do I plan on it, so I couldn't tell you how many are (or were when the adventure was commissioned) WotC Employees.
Also 100% have been on WotC's payroll as WotC pays for the submitted adventures that they print.
Just some information.
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4 years ago ::
Jul 10, 2009 - 8:34PM
#73
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And some are still freelancers. For example Kieth Baker is credited with both 3.5e and 4e books but is still a freelancer. Also if they use to be an employee of WotC but were let go during the rounds of layoffs they are freelancers.
I haven't looked through the list of names nor do I plan on it, so I couldn't tell you how many are (or were when the adventure was commissioned) WotC Employees.
Also 100% have been on WotC's payroll as WotC pays for the submitted adventures that they print.
Just some information.
It just seems misleading to say "we accept submissions from freelancers" or "most of our articles have been from freelancers" and neglect to mention they're people who worked on Martial Power or Adventurer's Vault and long-established authors.
Why have the big open submission when you're only going to publish stuff by guys you're on a first name basis with and have your office phone number?
Not being a published author (yet) I just don't feel motivated to try and compete with Skip Williams or someone with a dozen RPGA modules under their belt.
I mean, Dungeon was advertised as providing three adventures each month but has settled into 2/month and there's likely no limit to the submissions being e-mailed in; so I imagine there are financial limits to what the magazine can pay out.
And when Dungeon switches to DM-only content pulling those articles from Dragon that will also likely take pages and dollars away from adventures.
But it's still discouraging to know the low odds of cutting your teeth in Dungeon or breaking into the industry through the magazines. Where's the next generation of new talent going to come from?
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4 years ago ::
Jul 10, 2009 - 9:16PM
#74
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Jester raises some good points.
It definately gives off a good old boys club vibe in terms of submissions accepted and printed.
I think editorial should think about what they can do (or do differently) to bring adventures to the e-mag that are more than just hack-n-slash games. Do the submission guidelines or maybe even the process itself have something to do with roleplay stuff being left out of Dungeon adventures?
Is it something about the way sumbmissions are handled between editorial and the freelancers? something about what is communicated vis-a-vis WOTC's expectations?
Editorial has a lot more to do with the meager offerings we've received in Dungeon than we've really talked about on this thread thus far. We've sorta danced around this issue, I think.
Editorial is responsible for what leaves their desk and sees print. Merely saying that we print the best of what we get is a disingenious response to the criticisms that this thread has been raising.
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4 years ago ::
Jul 10, 2009 - 9:23PM
#75
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I have to say also, sending in your proposal, waiting 60 days to hear if they like it, sending in a full article, and then waiting 60 days again to hear if they want to buy it, isn't exactly a strong incentive to submitting.
Plus I've got no idea whether they welcome multiple simultaneous proposals or not; I'd have sent three or four ideas for articles at once if I could be sure they'd be appreciated, but as it is I have to wait the two months to see if anyone's interested in my first one before trying again.
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4 years ago ::
Jul 11, 2009 - 5:00AM
#76
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Date Joined:
Jul 11, 2003
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I don't see why it's so bad that the people writing the adventures are actual game designers. I would even say that I would rather pay a professionnal for a good module rather than a fan.
BUT up to now, the adventures offered by those professionnals are always lame excuses to start a dungeon crawl. Ok they're not easy to write, but they're not to my taste, hence this whole thread.
I am lacking a good story, with dramatic situations, etc. And I'm willing to pay whoever able to provide me this. Maybe GregT_314 has a fabulous adventure under his sleeve, but too bad, it's being discarded by ... I guess one of the Chris (Sims or Perkins).
I hope any freelancers who is reading this thread will realize that there is a demand for a different kind of adventure than what has been proposed up to now. And I hope that whoever at WotC who selects the submission will realize that there is an audiance waiting for another kind of adventure.
Now, for the content of Dungeon mag, as C. Perkins said, it's not a matter of how many adventures there are, but how many words are there. As WotC is paying per words, it would cost them the same to have 2 big adventures (as it's the case for the moment) of 4 small adventures. I would probably go for more adventures, but with the same word count.
And again, I would love to have R&D put some thoughts into how to present some "ready to use" scenes that DMs could use in their own adventures. Maybe it's not possible, because making an adventure is not like putting scene X with scene Y, etc. But maybe there's a way to better format the different encounters so that they can be more easily exported to home made adventures.
I think for instance of the Steal this hook articles. They might be expanded somehow. And along the steal this hook articles, I'd also love to see : steal this climax. Because for me, it would be more useful to start from the climax and working backward towards the hook rather than having a hook, but having only a slight (and often poor) idea where I'm heading to.
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4 years ago ::
Jul 11, 2009 - 6:48AM
#77
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Date Joined:
Aug 29, 2007
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I'll agree that it does raise questions to make the point, "We can only print what we receive" to try to deflect the criticism that there are too many dungeon crawls when apparently most of the adventures are done by D&D designers.
Can't you just *ask* them to write something else, or post a message at the company that you're looking for more plot-based adventures?
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4 years ago ::
Jul 11, 2009 - 12:28PM
#78
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Date Joined:
Mar 23, 2005
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I have to say also, sending in your proposal, waiting 60 days to hear if they like it, sending in a full article, and then waiting 60 days again to hear if they want to buy it, isn't exactly a strong incentive to submitting.
Plus I've got no idea whether they welcome multiple simultaneous proposals or not; I'd have sent three or four ideas for articles at once if I could be sure they'd be appreciated, but as it is I have to wait the two months to see if anyone's interested in my first one before trying again.
My understanding is that you can send multiple proposals per email, and also that you can send more submissions while you are waiting for the 60 days to expire on the first one.
That being said, I would love to receive even a form rejection letter. It would make me feel that at least my idea was read, and give more more time to send my submission to other publishers.
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4 years ago ::
Jul 11, 2009 - 2:34PM
#79
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Cailte writes:
Is there any interest in short adventures . . . Delve or LFR style adventures that can be played in an evening?
Yes, we would love to see pitches for short adventures designed for one or two sessions of play.
Jester writes:
Why have the big open submission when you're only going to publish stuff by guys you're on a first name basis with and have your office phone number? Not being a published author (yet) I just don't feel motivated to try and compete with Skip Williams or someone with a dozen RPGA modules under their belt. . . . Where's the next generation of new talent going to come from?
Good ideas come from everywhere — inside WotC and outside WotC — and the magazines have always been the place where D&D players and DMs can share their ideas and become published authors. Roughly two-thirds of the stuff we publish in the online magazines comes from freelancers, and roughly half of our printed books are written by freelancers, many of whom got their start writing for the magazines.
Not surprisingly, we strive to broaden our pool of freelancers, and WotC spends considerable time and money cultivating its freelance talent. When we find freelancers who are (a) professional and (b) creative, we work hard to keep them informed and involved with what we're doing, and we're constantly challenging them to improve their work. And after working with them on a few projects, we get to know them pretty well. Yes, they even get to know our phone numbers (although we prefer email!). And sometimes, at conventions, we even take them out to dinner. They've earned it.
When I was a teenager, I wanted nothing more than to work on D&D and write for Dungeon and Dragon magazines. I bombarded the editors with article and adventure pitches for 10 years. Today, here I sit on the other side of the fence, armed with the voice of experience.
Like it or not, writing for publication is a competitive exercise. You are in competition with every other person who sends us a pitch. The publishing business isn't for people who get discouraged easily.
If you don't feel motivated to compete with the likes of Skip Williams or any one of a number of prolific freelancers, then maybe you need to ask yourself, "Are my ideas as good as theirs?" If you believe you have great ideas and a talent for writing, then the only thing standing in your way is yourself.
When I was the editor of Dungeon magazine and the associate editor of Dragon magazine, the best part of my job was sending an acceptance letter to someone we'd never published before. The feeling comes with a vivid memory of the day I received such a letter from Roger E. Moore, the first editor of Dungeon adventures, back in 1986. I know Chris Youngs (the magazines' current editor-in-chief) feels the same way today. That said, we're not in the business of fulfilling hopes and dreams. We seek to publish the best D&D material that the entire D&D community has to offer.
Question from HobbitFan:
Do the submission guidelines or maybe even the process itself have something to do with roleplay stuff being left out of Dungeon adventures? . . . Is it something about the way sumbmissions are handled between editorial and the freelancers? something about what is communicated vis-a-vis WOTC's expectations?
The first rule of writing is, "Write what you know." The second rule of writing is, "Write for your intended audience." The submission guidelines urge prospective writers to look at the 4E game and past issues of the magazines to get a feel for the type of content that we tend to publish. However, giving us more of the same thing isn't really the point. The point of looking at past material is to get an idea of (a) the depth of existing content and (b) what new areas and topics are waiting to be explored. The submission guidelines don't tell you this, but honestly, they shouldn't have to.
D&D is a roleplaying game (says so in the Player's Handbook and Dungeon Master's Guide), so we're definitely looking for articles and adventures that emphasize roleplaying. However, to the bulk of the D&D audience, D&D is also about killing monsters and acquiring loot. The stuff we publish tends to blend both aspects of the game. "Haven of the Bitter Glass" (a recent Dungeon adventure) is a great example, but I can cite others. Even a purely hack-n-slash adventure isn't bereft of roleplaying (at least, not according to the rulebook definition of the term).
A Reese peanut butter cup wouldn't be a Reese peanut butter cup without the peanut butter. Similarly, we don't generally publish material that takes the combat out of D&D, but there are always exceptions to the rule. It might be fun to see a good murder mystery adventure that emphasized roleplaying and didn't require combat, provided — and this is very important — everyone in the party still had fun stuff to do in-game. One clever way to get around this problem is to design such an adventure for a single player. I wouldn't be averse to that, either.
GregT_314 writes:
I have to say also, sending in your proposal, waiting 60 days to hear if they like it, sending in a full article, and then waiting 60 days again to hear if they want to buy it, isn't exactly a strong incentive to submitting. . . . I would love to receive even a form rejection letter. It would make me feel that at least my idea was read, and give more more time to send my submission to other publishers.
Good point.
I'll talk to the magazine staff about modifying our submission process to include some sort of early response, whether that's a form rejection letter or something else. The current process exists because we inherited hundreds of unread proposals following the transition from Paizo, but we're more or less caught up now (and have been for several months).
MatthewJHanson writes:
My understanding is that you can send multiple proposals per email, and also that you can send more submissions while you are waiting for the 60 days to expire on the first one.
Yes, you can send multiple pitches per email, as well as more submissions while you are waiting for the 60 days to expire on the first email.
akhena writes:
Now, for the content of Dungeon mag, . . . it's not a matter of how many adventures there are, but how many words are there. As WotC is paying per words, it would cost them the same to have 2 big adventures (as it's the case for the moment) or 4 small adventures. I would probably go for more adventures, but with the same word count.
No argument here. You'll begin to see more shorter adventures in upcoming issues, including some Side Treks and Delve-style encounters.
Chris
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4 years ago ::
Jul 11, 2009 - 3:04PM
#80
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Firs off, I'd like to say an honest thank you for replying. I know you're probably busy and taking time out of your day for a heated forum discussion is not how you want to spend your free time.
Jester writes:
Why have the big open submission when you're only going to publish stuff by guys you're on a first name basis with and have your office phone number? Not being a published author (yet) I just don't feel motivated to try and compete with Skip Williams or someone with a dozen RPGA modules under their belt. . . . Where's the next generation of new talent going to come from?
Good ideas come from everywhere — inside WotC and outside WotC — and the magazines have always been the place where D&D players and DMs can share their ideas and become published authors. Roughly two-thirds of the stuff we publish in the online magazines comes from freelancers, and roughly half of our printed books are written by freelancers, many of whom got their start writing for the magazines. (Some of these freelancers have also written books for us. They're that good.)
Alright, that's fair. My concern is the comment "half of our printed books are written by freelancers, many of whom got their start writing for the magazines" which seems to be reversing.
Half our printed magazines are written by freelancers, many of whom got their start writing for the books.
With all of the previews, book tie-ins, and articles that are essentially web enhancements, there's precious little free space in the magazines. It's sad to see the limited space filled by a writer who probably doesn't need the article as much as a starving rookie freelancer, desperate for that first break.
When I was a teenager, I wanted nothing more than to work on D&D and write for Dungeon and Dragon magazines. I bombarded the editors with article and adventure pitches for 10 years. Today, here I sit on the other side of the fence, armed with the voice of experience.
Like it or not, writing for publication is a competitive exercise. You are in competition with every other person who sends us a pitch. The publishing business isn't for people who get discouraged easily.
If you don't feel motivated to compete with the likes of Skip Williams or any one of a number of prolific freelancers, then maybe you need to ask whether that's because your ideas aren't as good as theirs. If you believe you have great ideas and a talent for writing, then the only thing standing in your way is yourself.
I do have ideas and someday I'd like to be published. I have a simple idea for a sidetrek style article fermenting in my brain that might see light someday. Someday being a time when I'm much less busy.
Am I being discouraged too easily? Perhaps. It's hard to work-up the motivation when I know I'm competing directly with the big names and have to be two or three times as impressive to stand a chance.
Put another way, if you have room for one Forgotten Realms article that month and you have two solid submissions, and one is by Ed Greenwood, which one are you honestly going to pick?
When I was the editor of Dungeon magazine and the associate editor of Dragon magazine, the best part of my job was sending an acceptance letter to someone we'd never published before. The feeling comes with a vivid memory of the day I received such a letter from Roger E. Moore, the first editor of Dungeon adventures, back in 1986. I know Chris Youngs (the magazines' current editor-in-chief) feels the same way today. That said, we're not in the business of fulfilling hopes and dreams. We seek to publish the best D&D material that the entire D&D community has to offer.
That's hard but true.
I'd probably still be calling for more new authors and fewer old hats even if all the feedback I'd heard was positive, but fewer people would listen. As it is, I've repeatedly heard from message boarders and in person that there are too many unimaginative dungeon crawls.
Before posting, ask yourself WWWS: What Would Wrecan Say?Spoiler:
Show
My Webcomic
Updated Tuesday and Thursday
Read my blog on the WotC Community Site (updated irregularly to avoid spamming the "Featured Blogger" list).
You can follow me on Twitter: "@DnDJester"
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