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[FONT="Comic Sans MS"]Well I don't think it's that bad of an idea depending on when maintence is. Consider the fact that they got ride of the codes in book because it's too hard to follow Pepsi's lead. All the new stuff will be accessable through DDi and you can always use DDi as a reason not to buy books or pdfs or a way to preview a book before it's out.

But I agree with the XBox Live comment. I shouldn't have to pay more for DDi than XBox live considering my head isn't in HD.[/FONT]

I will not be subscribing to DDi. I'm twenty six and fifteen dollars is alot of money in monthly expenses for me. If I wasn't lucky with my rent I'd have to get a second job to support myself. Most people my age who live alone here do have to have two jobs or a roommates to cope with the cost of rent.

I immediately bought 4th when it came out. I loved reading the designer blogs, and I was really looking forward to seeing the new edition. I've run a game since a week after it's release and frankly I'm not impressed enough with what the DDi will offer to sink a constant stream of money into it.

If it was closer to what I imagined "Between and MMO and Magazine subscription" to mean, five dollars to maybe nine-ish, I would consider it, but truth be told I can't help but feel a bit deceived by the pricing (Regardless of it being logical to feel such). As it stands my extra income will be going to other interests. As a person who works at my flgs and who spends many hours off the clock there I'd really like to be able to put my support behind the companies that provide the goods I sell, but this is something I can't support them in. I just don't see the value.

WOTC REALLY needs to consider the opinions in this thread. The market is big, but I think this thread reflects the opinion of gamers in general.

I really think that if D&D INSIDER Flops, Hasbro is going to sink WOTC (I hope they don't).

They will not have near the # of subscribers as WoW, and if they are basing their market on what WoW can do (I doubt they are), then they are shooting themselves in the foot.

My fiance plays WoW 6 hours a day. I would use D&DI to read articles, and then play 2-3 times a week.

Why people rise up and rant and rave about something they have no idea about, I'll never understand. Let's look at this- consider it -instead of simply exploding because of seeing a $15 monthly fee. Here we go.

Firstly, $15 a month is 50 cents a day. That's it, fifty whole cents a day. I personally know gamers who easily spend $3 dollars a day on extra soft drinks/snack food at work, and then proceed to complain about having to pay out $15/month for something like this! HA! If you are truly so broke you can't afford this, then you undoubtedly couldn't afford the books, thus you are not WotC's target market anyhow. Moan about it all you want, but most people can find 15 bucks a month in their couch.

Secondly, STOP comparing DDI to WoW. They are completely, totally, ridiculously different. I've been lucky enough to play nearly every MMO out there, I've tried free ones, I've tried pay to play ones. I like WoW, it's fun, something to do. However, it is NOT DnD, and never will be, no online MMO will ever compare. Also, just because the game is popular, does not mean they have a lot of overhead costs, we have no idea how many people they employ in maintaining WoW, but I seriously doubt it's as many as folks think.

Let's move on to the product itself, DDI. Let me mention something that everyone seems to be forgetting.According to WotC, DDI will be updated with the monthly release of every new book. New races get added to the Visualizer, new mini's, new classes for the generator, a ton of info would get uploaded to the Compendium etc. Every. Single. Month. It's not static, it will continue to grow.

1. D&D Character Visualizer- Any decent gamer knows about the struggle to find a good visual representation of their character, or a DM for a villian. In the past, folks just use Heroforge [costs money] or Google Image to pull up something that vaguely resembles what they want. With this, you can instantly create an exact visual representation of any DnD character class/race. A very handly tool, although not necessary, I'd say it's worth, what, a $1 a month? That's 30 months of use and updates, even if you just compare it to the price of Heroforge.

2. D&D Character Builder- An absolute time saver and winner. While there's plenty of PC generators and all that out there for free, they always only include the base stuff. A character builder that is automatically updated with every race/class, etc.? Can't ask for more than that. We have no idea if it will autocalculate even, or what not, which would be even better. I'd say that's worth $1 a month, just for the updates.

3. D&D Game Table- One of the biggest draws of DDI. No more will you have to do Play by e-mail or have to give up on gaming just because you've had to move for whatever reason. If WotC is for real, we will have a voice integrated, 3D [all the other free/pay virtual tabletops are 2D from what I've seen] virtual tabletop. I know, with my gaming group, we have a hard time getting together more than once a week because of this or that, but with the gaming table, everyone can make time to log in for a few hours from home and play, which will increase your play time overall, giving more bang for the buck. Not only that, but it could easily be used in a face to face game as well. Sure, you may have to pay for extra virtual mini's, but I'm sure they'll have a basic set. When you consider the voice integration alone, this is worth at least $4 a month, with the perks, like 3D, I'd bump that up to $6/month.

4. D&D Dungeon Builder- Something any decent DM will be lucking forward too. Now you can print your OWN dungeon tiles, quite nice for a variety of purposes. If it's of half decent quality and useability, it should trump what is out there in freeware easily. The fact you can upload the maps to the virtual table top, is the big thing. Should realy be factored into cost of tabletop.

5. D&DI Compendium- Searchable feats, rules, classes, races, etc, automatically updated every month with information from the newest book, wowzer. Now, before you start screaming about what's out there now, keep in mind it's a very poor preview. I imagine they even put the preview out early in an attempt to appease the rabid nay sayers, who knows. Game developers push games back all the time, no big deal. Could it be they are actually working hard to create a quality product, so they are taking their time instead of rushing it and putting out a sub par suite of items? I find it amusing people are griping because they have not shoved it out the door, but those SAME folks would have a fit if they did exactly that, because it wouldn't be good enough. Talk about being hypocritical, but I digress. If it is anywhere near as good as promised, this will be worth a few bucks a month, easily.

6. Dragon, Dragon Magazine- I clump these two together. Dungeon adventures can be the different between game and no game, and many an idea has been garnered from Dragon mags. New feats, adventures, classes, ideas, etc., can't beat that. They were what, 3.20 per issue if you got the subscription in the past? Going digital they are saving money, so they should be cheaper, but, they still have to pay the artists, contributors, etc. What's fair? I've seen people propose all sorts of costs, but I'll go with 4 per month for both, thats 2 bucks apiece, fair pricing I'd say.


By my calculations above, I came to $14/month, and that's not considering the map maker. If you divide it all up and look at it objectively, look at what's out there, and here's the big thing; If it has the updates like WotC has said it will, then there is no doubt you are getting your money's worth. There's plenty of outside companies who charge for different aspects of what DDI offers, but people ignore that. A person could get at least 3 months of DDI for what they'd pay for non-WotC products that do half of what DDI is supposed to do, and are never updated. And no one out there has a 3D virtual tabletop that's any good.

The final word. If you've seen the price and hate it because you can't afford that, fine. But stop acting like the product isn't worth that, because if it does as promised, it is, without doubt, worth every penny.

If I'm not mistaken, and I can be 'cause I didn't read the whole topic, the Character Builder will have the information from the books I've entered theirs unique code, which means only the info from the books you bought. So, unless you're planning in spending something like $50 a month with WoTC stuff (including D$DI), you won't have a very large selection on the builder. Am I right or has this policy changed?

epereira wrote:

If I'm not mistaken, and I can be 'cause I didn't read the whole topic, the Character Builder will have the information from the books I've entered theirs unique code, which means only the info from the books you bought. So, unless you're planning in spending something like $50 a month with WoTC stuff (including D$DI), you won't have a very large selection on the builder. Am I right or has this policy changed?

There are no book codes that plan was changed.
Difference now is only between Insider and non Insider.
Insider gets a summery of a rule.
A non Insider gets referred to what book/source rule can be found.

My concern is this is a niche product, my d&d group are pencil and paper players who revel in books, and tiles, and funny miniatures that over the past years have been everything from goblins to white dragons. Having computers at the table would be stupid, we all work in front of computers all day, this is our chance to make eye contact and roll dice. I feel there is a larger community of people who are like me when it comes to D&D than those who have laptops blocking their view from friends, and a DM with a computer monitor as a tabletop and Rules Compendium up for rule questions......

Character Creator, people have mentioned stand-alone programs, i personally like chilling out with paper and pencil, but still, is this upgraded monthly with new features? In which case how much can you change to make it worthwhile when the average player doesn't make a new character monthly?

Dragon and Dungeon magazine: I have a subscription to Popular Science, it's 18 dollars a year (well, 12 now, but i think i get a discount for being with them forever) I want information on how to subscribe to one of the magazines only, and get it PAPER VERSION, as i despise these PDFs as i likely pay 2-3 additional dollars, the cost of buying the mag in a shop, printing them out and putting them in a binder so i actually have something to read........

Rule Compendium: Everyone who plays an MMO has their pet Wiki sites, so someone email me at ixious@gmail.com a good website that keeps up with the rules in a general way, enough for those of us bored at work, not RPGA accurate, as honestly I will likely glance at the page once or twise a week when I am at work away from my books, but nothing worth any more than i already pay for internet in my home

Online Board, DM Kit, all those tools: Looks great, situational though, some DMs would give an arm and a leg, not how I play, not what I need, it is a choice and evaluation of my personal needs, this right here could be worth the whole 15/month for some people's situations, and I respect that, but it isnt me.

So, bottom line of this rant, for a person who plays D&D to the extent that I do, and under the conditions I do this great leap into the world of cyberspace is a leap i care not to join, BUT there is only 1 feature that I want from this DDI package.....

A PAPER subscription to Dragon, how do I do this?

Malkyri wrote:

Why people rise up and rant and rave about something they have no idea about, I'll never understand. Let's look at this- consider it -instead of simply exploding because of seeing a $15 monthly fee. Here we go.

Firstly, $15 a month is 50 cents a day. That's it, fifty whole cents a day. I personally know gamers who easily spend $3 dollars a day on extra soft drinks/snack food at work, and then proceed to complain about having to pay out $15/month for something like this! HA! If you are truly so broke you can't afford this, then you undoubtedly couldn't afford the books, thus you are not WotC's target market anyhow. Moan about it all you want, but most people can find 15 bucks a month in their couch.

Just because you break something down into a daily cost does not reduce the overall impact of that cost.
Just because I can find it does not mean I have to spend it on the DDI.
While those may be nice marketing catchphrases, they do not in any way establish a legitimate value for the product.
Add in the mockery of people who may not feel the product is worth that amount by suggesting they are pretending to be poor moves into guaranteeing some people will not even bother.

Secondly, STOP comparing DDI to WoW. They are completely, totally, ridiculously different. I've been lucky enough to play nearly every MMO out there, I've tried free ones, I've tried pay to play ones. I like WoW, it's fun, something to do. However, it is NOT DnD, and never will be, no online MMO will ever compare. Also, just because the game is popular, does not mean they have a lot of overhead costs, we have no idea how many people they employ in maintaining WoW, but I seriously doubt it's as many as folks think.

They are both monthly subscription services. Why should people not make a comparison?
You want to compare the cost of the DDI to how much people spend on snackfood every day. That is an absurd comparison.

Let's move on to the product itself, DDI. Let me mention something that everyone seems to be forgetting.According to WotC, DDI will be updated with the monthly release of every new book. New races get added to the Visualizer, new mini's, new classes for the generator, a ton of info would get uploaded to the Compendium etc. Every. Single. Month. It's not static, it will continue to grow.

According to WotC, DDI would be live the same day the books were released.
I am sure that I am not alone in believing that WotC will produce according to their promises for the DDI when we actually see it, not when they release more ad copy.

1. D&D Character Visualizer- Any decent gamer knows about the struggle to find a good visual representation of their character, or a DM for a villian. In the past, folks just use Heroforge [costs money] or Google Image to pull up something that vaguely resembles what they want. With this, you can instantly create an exact visual representation of any DnD character class/race. A very handly tool, although not necessary, I'd say it's worth, what, a $1 a month? That's 30 months of use and updates, even if you just compare it to the price of Heroforge.

What struggle?
In most groups I have been with we just turned to the guy who liked to draw, described our character, waited 5 minutes, looked at the sketch, and drooled "Awesome!"
Oh right, I almost missed it. That is any "decent" gamer. Apparently any gamer who relies solely on their imagination, or having a highly competent artist in their group is some sort of substandard gamer. Your negative advertising really rocks in convincing me to get on board with the DDI.
Looking more closely, you seem to be a bit confused about what constitutes an "exact visual representation". Unless this comes with some instant artist updates for any of a massive range of tweaks that every individual gamer can imagine for their particular character, it will manage at best a generic image with a few options.
How much would I pay for that? Nothing, I will just keep using my imagination or pestering my artist friends.

2. D&D Character Builder- An absolute time saver and winner. While there's plenty of PC generators and all that out there for free, they always only include the base stuff. A character builder that is automatically updated with every race/class, etc.? Can't ask for more than that. We have no idea if it will autocalculate even, or what not, which would be even better. I'd say that's worth $1 a month, just for the updates.

I would not. I have found most character builders to be more difficult to use than just a simple blank stat block, an index, and checking the books by hand.
Again, worthless to me.

3. D&D Game Table- One of the biggest draws of DDI. No more will you have to do Play by e-mail or have to give up on gaming just because you've had to move for whatever reason. If WotC is for real, we will have a voice integrated, 3D [all the other free/pay virtual tabletops are 2D from what I've seen] virtual tabletop. I know, with my gaming group, we have a hard time getting together more than once a week because of this or that, but with the gaming table, everyone can make time to log in for a few hours from home and play, which will increase your play time overall, giving more bang for the buck. Not only that, but it could easily be used in a face to face game as well. Sure, you may have to pay for extra virtual mini's, but I'm sure they'll have a basic set. When you consider the voice integration alone, this is worth at least $4 a month, with the perks, like 3D, I'd bump that up to $6/month.

Or you can just find a new group wherever you have moved to.
Or you can muddle on through with a 2D tabletop for free.
The first just requires you to find the local FLGS or similar venue and talk to new people. You know, socialize, one of the major superior points of tabletop gaming.
For the online campaign I am currently running, if the application will really that easy to use, which the last WotC chat software was definitely not, I might consider this worth $25 per year.

4. D&D Dungeon Builder- Something any decent DM will be lucking forward too. Now you can print your OWN dungeon tiles, quite nice for a variety of purposes. If it's of half decent quality and useability, it should trump what is out there in freeware easily. The fact you can upload the maps to the virtual table top, is the big thing. Should realy be factored into cost of tabletop.

Or I just spend $10 bucks for the latest Dungeon Tiles release, and ignore paying this yet again.

5. D&DI Compendium- Searchable feats, rules, classes, races, etc, automatically updated every month with information from the newest book, wowzer. Now, before you start screaming about what's out there now, keep in mind it's a very poor preview. I imagine they even put the preview out early in an attempt to appease the rabid nay sayers, who knows. Game developers push games back all the time, no big deal. Could it be they are actually working hard to create a quality product, so they are taking their time instead of rushing it and putting out a sub par suite of items? I find it amusing people are griping because they have not shoved it out the door, but those SAME folks would have a fit if they did exactly that, because it wouldn't be good enough. Talk about being hypocritical, but I digress. If it is anywhere near as good as promised, this will be worth a few bucks a month, easily.

So I should pay for a proper index that should be included in each book I actually purchase from them?
Yeah. Right.
What WotC should do, if they expect to impress me with their commitment to keeping me as a customer, is provide a simple, free constantly updated, searchable index of such things as a simple application or web page. Asking me to pay for it will just convince me they are just looking for a cheap payoff.

6. Dragon, Dragon Magazine- I clump these two together. Dungeon adventures can be the different between game and no game, and many an idea has been garnered from Dragon mags. New feats, adventures, classes, ideas, etc., can't beat that. They were what, 3.20 per issue if you got the subscription in the past? Going digital they are saving money, so they should be cheaper, but, they still have to pay the artists, contributors, etc. What's fair? I've seen people propose all sorts of costs, but I'll go with 4 per month for both, thats 2 bucks apiece, fair pricing I'd say.

For a pdf e-zine I would pay as much as I pay for other pdf e-zines - nothing.
While a lot of people like reading off a computer monitor, a lot of others, myself included, do not. Since I would have to print all of these issues, the cost for ink is well beyond what I would pay for the magazine in the stores, leaving nothing for me to give to WotC. Too bad for them really, as I have subscribed to Dragon since issue 40.

By my calculations above, I came to $14/month, and that's not considering the map maker. If you divide it all up and look at it objectively, look at what's out there, and here's the big thing; If it has the updates like WotC has said it will, then there is no doubt you are getting your money's worth. There's plenty of outside companies who charge for different aspects of what DDI offers, but people ignore that. A person could get at least 3 months of DDI for what they'd pay for non-WotC products that do half of what DDI is supposed to do, and are never updated. And no one out there has a 3D virtual tabletop that's any good.

I come up with $25/year, if the product is really ultra awesome, and if I can be bothered with it. That makes DDI overpriced by a factor of more than 4 for a yearly subscription, and more than 6 for a monthly subscription.
That other companies produce and charge for such thing is irrelevant, as I am not paying them either. (That is another factor you overlook. Just because a product exists, from one company, ten, or a hundred, I do not have to buy it from any of them unless it fills a particular need I have.)

The final word. If you've seen the price and hate it because you can't afford that, fine. But stop acting like the product isn't worth that, because if it does as promised, it is, without doubt, worth every penny.

Repeating a previous word. Mocking potential customers because they cannot afford your product is a very poor marketing strategy. It really convinces me not to bother giving the DDI a chance at all, as WotC obviously intends it only for gamers with excess disposable income. As that is not me, I will just have to go spend what money I do have on products from other companies that are for gamers with just a general entertainment budget.

Malkyri wrote:

Firstly, $15 a month is 50 cents a day. That's it, fifty whole cents a day. I personally know gamers who easily spend $3 dollars a day on extra soft drinks/snack food at work, and then proceed to complain about having to pay out $15/month for something like this! HA! If you are truly so broke you can't afford this, then you undoubtedly couldn't afford the books, thus you are not WotC's target market anyhow. Moan about it all you want, but most people can find 15 bucks a month in their couch.

Here's a suggestion: You give me three dollars a month. That's 10 cents a day - you surely can afford that, can't you? You even get something in return: I'm gonna tell everybody I know that you're a great guy. Do you feel you get your money's worth yet, or shall I go on with the sales pitch?

You see, I can afford coughing up the monthly fee for WoW, but I choose not to. Doesn't mean I'm cheap, doesn't mean I'm poor, just means that it has nothing to offer me that justifies the expense.

Malkyri wrote:

Secondly, STOP comparing DDI to WoW. They are completely, totally, ridiculously different.

To me it seems to be the closest comparison there is. You're comparing subscribing to DDI with buying snacks, so... *shrug*

All I'm saying is that I completely agree with those who feel that DDI isn't worth $10, let alone $15. It has nothing to offer I want, and looking at the company that offers DDI, its history with online ventures, its history of major PR ****-ups, its non-existent customer service, its love for putting out very colorful glossy-paper products with very mediocre content, and its penchant for resting on its three decades old laurels, I'll pass. Given that the RPG market is a niche market and not especially lucrative to begin with, I prefer to give my money to the companies that publish products of which I think there's actually heart's blood, enthusiasm and love for the hobby in them. WotC has enough money as it is, and more than enough people are gonna throw their money at them just because it's WotC. They don't need mine.

DB

Malkyri wrote:

Sure, you may have to pay for extra virtual mini's, but I'm sure they'll have a basic set.

I we are paying per month for this, then the minis should be updated as part of that expense.

Yeah . . . there's no way in hell I'm spending 180$/year on two D&D magazines.

Here are some replies:

A PAPER subscription to Dragon, how do I do this?

You can't Ixious, the paper version of Dragon no longer exists. I hate that too, but, nothing we can do about it.

Samwise wrote:

Add in the mockery of people who may not feel the product is worth that amount by suggesting they are pretending to be poor moves into guaranteeing some people will not even bother.

I never mocked anyone, nor did I pretend anyone was poor. I stated the truth. If you can't afford 15/month, then you definitely can't afford 30 a month for a new book. If your budget is so tight you can't find this disposable income, then you are not the target audience.

Samwise wrote:

They are both monthly subscription services. Why should people not make a comparison?

There's a lot of subscription services out there. But let's look at it like this, WoW lets you log in and play a game with friends. It has no voice chat, but has 3d representation of an environment. You can play WoW alone, while you cannot do this on DDI. So... how can you justify 15/month for WoW, but not for DDI? Is the solo play worth that much? What about the lack of voice chat? Oh.. not your problem since only the guild leaders absorb that cost, right? They provide comparable things, with the difference you need find a group for DDI, while WoW has the playerbase brought to you. Howver, isn't finding those players part of the "socializing" you were mentioning earlier? I think their different, but if you insist on comparing WoW and DDI, at the base, they could be considered similiar.

Samwise wrote:

You want to compare the cost of the DDI to how much people spend on snackfood every day. That is an absurd comparison.

I in no way compared the cost to what people spend on snack food to DDI. What I did was remark on personal experiences, in how some people waste money on something that provides nothing more than a short term benefit, but then complain about having to pay 1/8th that cost for something that could be used for hours at a time, every day. I'm remarking more on the irony of that, than making a comparison.

Samwise wrote:

According to WotC, DDI would be live the same day the books were released. I am sure that I am not alone in believing that WotC will produce according to their promises for the DDI when we actually see it, not when they release more ad copy.

They pushed back the date, totally understandable, and often done for product releases, it proves nothing. As for you not believing until they produce, what does that matter? You've already decided it's too expensive for those specific services. No matter how good DDI is, you don't feel the cost of those services is justified, so it doesn't matter to you what they produce.

Samwise wrote:

What struggle?
In most groups I have been with we just turned to the guy who liked to draw, described our character, waited 5 minutes, looked at the sketch, and drooled "Awesome!"

I used the wrong word in saying any "decent" gamer, and I did not mean it condescendly, and I apologize. I should have said any "regular" gamer, or something of that sort. I was referring to those of us without art talent.

As for this, it must be nice. I've gamed with no less than fifty people since I started gaming, and not a single one had any true artistic ability. We do have one guy who's quite good at cartography, but not at drawing anything other than maps. Every person has done just as I already mentioned and found some other image and used it as a base to describe their character. You imply that folks that do this are not imaginative enough, something that is simply untrue.

Samwise wrote:

Looking more closely, you seem to be a bit confused about what constitutes an "exact visual representation". Unless this comes with some instant artist updates for any of a massive range of tweaks that every individual gamer can imagine for their particular character, it will manage at best a generic image with a few options.

According to the given information, the visualizer has options for any skin color, race, clothing, weapons, armor, eyes, hair, scars, jewelry, body size, and even BUST size. That's as close to an "exact visual representation" as it gets. Something major happen to your character? You can go in the visualizer, change that, and print out the new look. Why would the tweaks need to be instant? Now I'm sure you may not be able to have a three armed, half drider, half dragon with purple dots, but customization can only go so far. In the scenario above though, anyone should just be able to turn directly to their artist friend who'll draw it right up for them, right?

Samwise wrote:

I would not. I have found most character builders to be more difficult to use than just a simple blank stat block, an index, and checking the books by hand.

You aren't using the right ones. At the end of 3.5 their were like 20, non campaign specific, books you could look through for classes, feats, etc. Unless you just want a basic pre gen type character, building what you really want takes time, looking through everything, etc. With an appropriate character builder, that has the info consolidated, you can take 4 hours of character creation time and break it down into 1 hour. If nothing else, a good character builder saves a lot of time, it's just a simple truth. I'm not saying it's better, but definitely easier.

Samwise wrote:

Or you can just find a new group wherever you have moved to.
Or you can muddle on through with a 2D tabletop for free.
The first just requires you to find the local FLGS or similar venue and talk to new people. You know, socialize, one of the major superior points of tabletop gaming.
For the online campaign I am currently running, if the application will really that easy to use, which the last WotC chat software was definitely not, I might consider this worth $25 per year.

You assume a lot here. If you live in a rural area, or in the bible belt, it is not as easy to find a group as you think. The local FLGS might be 2 hours away. if not more.
You CAN muddle through the 2D tabletop for free, but what you are paying for is a nice 3D representation that has voice chat, two things no one else currently has combined, that's why are paying! $25 a year won't even pay for a teamspeak server, which is $48 a year, by itself.

Samwise wrote:

Or I just spend $10 bucks for the latest Dungeon Tiles release, and ignore paying this yet again.

This is the statement that amused me the most. You would pay $10/month for a small set of dungeon tiles, but you won't pay $15/month to be able to create and make your own dungeon tiles, and get all the other things in DDI?
What is there to say really? Come on!

Samwise wrote:

What WotC should do, if they expect to impress me with their commitment to keeping me as a customer, is provide a simple, free constantly updated, searchable index of such things as a simple application or web page. Asking me to pay for it will just convince me they are just looking for a cheap payoff.

So you are suggesting they put their books out for free? DDI compendium will be searchable for free. You get a reference book and page number. There they've done exactly as you asked. Paying gives you a breakdown of the actual search. Basically people with DDI will get searchable parts of new books included in the cost of the $15 a month, nice if you ask me. How is this unfair?

Samwise wrote:

For a pdf e-zine I would pay as much as I pay for other pdf e-zines -nothing. While a lot of people like reading off a computer monitor, a lot of others, myself included, do not. Since I would have to print all of these issues, the cost for ink is well beyond what I would pay for the magazine in the stores, leaving nothing for me to give to WotC. Too bad for them really, as I have subscribed to Dragon since issue 40.

If the only differnce between the pdf and paper version of the magazines is format, then you are merely nit picking, because you know the quality is there. You don't have to pay to print the entire pdf. You can scan over the stuff, find the articles you like, only read/print those out. Don't like reading on a monitor, print it out and read it in paper version. By themselves, no they are not worth it, but as part of the entire package, they are.

Samwise wrote:

I come up with $25/year, if the product is really ultra awesome, and if I can be bothered with it. That makes DDI overpriced by a factor of more than 4 for a yearly subscription, and more than 6 for a monthly subscription.

Not much to say here, I've already proven you have to pay $48/year for the luxury of using a basic teamspeak server and nothing more. As you include options, the price rises, that's economics.

Samwise wrote:

Repeating a previous word. Mocking potential customers because they cannot afford your product is a very poor marketing strategy. It really convinces me not to bother giving the DDI a chance at all, as WotC obviously intends it only for gamers with excess disposable income. As that is not me, I will just have to go spend what money I do have on products from other companies that are for gamers with just a general entertainment budget.

I really don't see how you feel I'm mocking anyone. In fact, I remarked if you can't afford it, fine. That is what I mean. But, stop slamming a product that may be worth the price, just because that price may be beyond your means. This is akin to someone saying a movie sucks, just because they cannot afford to pay the cost of admission to see the movie. You aren't blasting it because of how good/bad the movie is, it's the price alone, and that's not right.

I'm in no way associated with WotC, so I don't understand why you take my word as their word on these things. But personally, if you go to another company, then that's your preference. I've tried tons and tons of indy games, and I none are as good as DnD to me. Regardless, WotC is not FORCING anyone to get DDI, so I don't understand why it would make you want to switch games anyhow. I've seen gamer after gamer over the years BEG for a service just like this from WotC, and now it's offered, but not free, everyone is up in arms. It's all ironical, hypocritical, and typical of the want something for free philosophy carried around by our current society.

Dexter_Blacktyde wrote:

Here's a suggestion: You give me three dollars a month. That's 10 cents a day - you surely can afford that, can't you? You even get something in return: I'm gonna tell everybody I know that you're a great guy. Do you feel you get your money's worth yet, or shall I go on with the sales pitch?

You see, I can afford coughing up the monthly fee for WoW, but I choose not to. Doesn't mean I'm cheap, doesn't mean I'm poor, just means that it has nothing to offer me that justifies the expense.

This is irrelevant, paying for a service like this has nothing to do with just handing someone money for nothing. As I've pointed out as well, just because you feel the cost isn't justified, doesn't mean that it is NOT. People are saying it's not worth this, or they can't afford that. If they do as promised, and you look at the market, and similiar products, it's a no brainer it's worth it.

I we are paying per month for this, then the minis should be updated as part of that expense.

There's already something like this in Legends of Norrath, you get a booster pack, but all the other virtual cards are not free. It costs money to develop and make these minis, In fact, the minis and table top will cost far more than the rest, I wouldn't be surprised if that's where they are trying to recoup their costs the most. Nothing is free.

I've tried to respond to everyone, my apologies if I missed someone. I'll just end with this. Who here knows the exact startup cost of DDI? Who knows how much it will cost WotC to keep it running and constantly updated? Anyone? They are trying to deliver a product that people have asked for and asked for, and they are trying to make a little money so they can continue their business, and people go rabid about that. They are a business, and are operating as a business does, if they didn't, DnD wouldn't exist right now. You act like they are out to shaft you all, but really, do you think all those writers and such are really out to get us? Most of the people at WotC are nerds just like us, lucky enough to get paid to play.

Malkyri wrote:

I never mocked anyone, nor did I pretend anyone was poor. I stated the truth. If you can't afford 15/month, then you definitely can't afford 30 a month for a new book. If your budget is so tight you can't find this disposable income, then you are not the target audience.

As I and other noted, just because we can afford something does not mean we have to buy it. Your dismissal of people who reject an overpriced service as being too poor is mockery, and very good at driving people away.

There's a lot of subscription services out there. But let's look at it like this, WoW lets you log in and play a game with friends. It has no voice chat, but has 3d representation of an environment. You can play WoW alone, while you cannot do this on DDI. So... how can you justify 15/month for WoW, but not for DDI?

If I had to, I would justify it by noting that WoW exists and DDI does not.
However, I do not have to justify it. I do not subscribe to WoW because I find the cost too high for the product, just like DDI.

I in no way compared the cost to what people spend on snack food to DDI. What I did was remark on personal experiences, in how some people waste money on something that provides nothing more than a short term benefit, but then complain about having to pay 1/8th that cost for something that could be used for hours at a time, every day. I'm remarking more on the irony of that, than making a comparison.

If you place two things side by side like that it is a comparison, whether you find it ironic or not. And it is in fact not ironic, as people must eat, they do not have to use the DDI to play.

They pushed back the date, totally understandable, and often done for product releases, it proves nothing. As for you not believing until they produce, what does that matter? You've already decided it's too expensive for those specific services. No matter how good DDI is, you don't feel the cost of those services is justified, so it doesn't matter to you what they produce.

One of the reasons for believing it is overpriced is the failure to meet deadlines.
And, despite your casual acceptance of it, the release dates for products are not often done in RPG publishing, particularly for a company like WotC. Indeed they specifically do not announce products until they know they have them ready. That they had such a failure with an electronic product is very telling.

I used the wrong word in saying any "decent" gamer, and I did not mean it condescendly, and I apologize. I should have said any "regular" gamer, or something of that sort. I was referring to those of us without art talent.

As for this, it must be nice. I've gamed with no less than fifty people since I started gaming, and not a single one had any true artistic ability. We do have one guy who's quite good at cartography, but not at drawing anything other than maps. Every person has done just as I already mentioned and found some other image and used it as a base to describe their character. You imply that folks that do this are not imaginative enough, something that is simply untrue.

Actually, no, I do not imply that anyone is not imaginative enough.
You do by suggesting that they need an artist or something like DDI character program.
So now you accept they may be decent gamers, but they just have to have an external visual image for their character.

According to the given information,

Right. According to the given information. Not according to functional evidence.

You aren't using the right ones. At the end of 3.5 their were like 20, non campaign specific, books you could look through for classes, feats, etc. Unless you just want a basic pre gen type character, building what you really want takes time, looking through everything, etc. With an appropriate character builder, that has the info consolidated, you can take 4 hours of character creation time and break it down into 1 hour. If nothing else, a good character builder saves a lot of time, it's just a simple truth. I'm not saying it's better, but definitely easier.

Yeah?
And?
I had a template, the indexes, and the books.
The only thing that ever took time was carefully selecting equipment. The rest was always more time in actually typing in numbers than looking anything up.
So no, it is not a simple truth. It is easier for you, that is all you can attest to.

You assume a lot here. If you live in a rural area, or in the bible belt, it is not as easy to find a group as you think. The local FLGS might be 2 hours away. if not more.

And yet I know so many people who live in rural areas, in the bible belt, who have thriving groups.

You CAN muddle through the 2D tabletop for free, but what you are paying for is a nice 3D representation that has voice chat, two things no one else currently has combined, that's why are paying! $25 a year won't even pay for a teamspeak server, which is $48 a year, by itself.

Or you get Skype for free and everyone saves the cash to buy an extra book that year instead of getting all warm and fuzzy over a virtual 3D image.

This is the statement that amused me the most. You would pay $10/month for a small set of dungeon tiles, but you won't pay $15/month to be able to create and make your own dungeon tiles, and get all the other things in DDI?
What is there to say really? Come on!

No, I would not pay $10/month for a set of dungeon tiles, small or large.
I would, and have, paid $10/once for a small set of dungeon tiles with a theoretical lifespan of until I stop gaming.
Amortized over 20 years, I can get 7 sets for less than a penny a day! (Since you like daily costs.)

So you are suggesting they put their books out for free? DDI compendium will be searchable for free. You get a reference book and page number. There they've done exactly as you asked. Paying gives you a breakdown of the actual search. Basically people with DDI will get searchable parts of new books included in the cost of the $15 a month, nice if you ask me. How is this unfair?

The books, no.
The indexes, definitely yes.
As for fair or unfair, that is irrelevant. It is simply not worth the cost.

If the only differnce between the pdf and paper version of the magazines is format, then you are merely nit picking, because you know the quality is there.

No nits, picked or otherwise, are involved in the differences between a book to hold and a pdf to have to print out.
As for the quality, I do not know that is there. More than enough threads on the errors in the e-zines exist to testify to that.

Not much to say here, I've already proven you have to pay $48/year for the luxury of using a basic teamspeak server and nothing more. As you include options, the price rises, that's economics.

You have proven incorrectly. Yet again, a service like Skype is free. Likewise playing after 9 PM when everone has free minutes and can just conference call.

I really don't see how you feel I'm mocking anyone. In fact, I remarked if you can't afford it, fine. That is what I mean. But, stop slamming a product that may be worth the price, just because that price may be beyond your means. This is akin to someone saying a movie sucks, just because they cannot afford to pay the cost of admission to see the movie. You aren't blasting it because of how good/bad the movie is, it's the price alone, and that's not right.

You are assuming that price is the only relevant factor. It is not. There are these things called "quality" and "value" that are relevant as well. Both of those are, so far, totally missing from the DDI.

I'm in no way associated with WotC, so I don't understand why you take my word as their word on these things.

Then why post so assertively?
If you are not associated with WotC, what do you care if people think the price of the DDI is too high?

But personally, if you go to another company, then that's your preference. I've tried tons and tons of indy games, and I none are as good as DnD to me. Regardless, WotC is not FORCING anyone to get DDI, so I don't understand why it would make you want to switch games anyhow.

Who said I was switching games?
I will still play D&D.
That no longer requires WotC.

I've seen gamer after gamer over the years BEG for a service just like this from WotC, and now it's offered, but not free, everyone is up in arms. It's all ironical, hypocritical, and typical of the want something for free philosophy carried around by our current society.

Just because someone else begged for something in no way obligates me to pay for it, particularly not at the inflated price said begging person is offering.
Even A-Rod was willing to take a pay cut to keep playing for the Yankees.

This is irrelevant, paying for a service like this has nothing to do with just handing someone money for nothing. As I've pointed out as well, just because you feel the cost isn't justified, doesn't mean that it is NOT. People are saying it's not worth this, or they can't afford that. If they do as promised, and you look at the market, and similiar products, it's a no brainer it's worth it.

And just because you feel the cost is justified does not mean that it is.
And people have looked at the market and similar products, and concluded that it is a no brainer that the DDI is overpriced.

Nothing is free.

Particularly not my patronage. If there is no value, I will not offer up my money.

I've tried to respond to everyone, my apologies if I missed someone. I'll just end with this. Who here knows the exact startup cost of DDI? Who knows how much it will cost WotC to keep it running and constantly updated? Anyone?

How much is that my responsibility? Anyone?
Zero!
Yet again, I have no obligation to buy any individual or collective product from WotC. I have passed on multiple products in the past, I will pass on multiple products in the future.

They are trying to deliver a product that people have asked for and asked for, and they are trying to make a little money so they can continue their business, and people go rabid about that. They are a business, and are operating as a business does, if they didn't, DnD wouldn't exist right now. You act like they are out to shaft you all, but really, do you think all those writers and such are really out to get us? Most of the people at WotC are nerds just like us, lucky enough to get paid to play.

And they are delivering a poor product.
I know several of the WotC people. They are really great people. Not only am I sure they are not out to shaft me or anyone else, but I am also sure they are trying to get by, want their products to succeed, and are doing their best.
That still does not mean I have to buy their stuff.
That still does not mean the DDI has value it does not.
Good people can make bad products. It does not suddenly make them bad people, or undeserving, but it also does not mean people have to buy that product anyway.

Samwise wrote:

And they are delivering a poor product.
QUOTE]

As I've mentioned, you've made your judgement, and you made it based on price alone, not on the actual product. And for the record, stating a fact is not mocking anyone. If you can't afford something, you can't afford it, that's not mocking, that is a fact. Trying to make me seem like a bad guy so your argument looks better, accomplishes nothing.

We have an entire thread of people saying DDI is overpriced. They have no other justification, they have no other reason, than the cost. They don't think about what is doing for hobby gaming, or anything. They, like you, have no idea how good or bad the product will be. You mention RPG products are rarely delayed. DDI is far beyond anything ever imagined by a gaming company, it is much more like a game, which are very often delayed.

The ridiculous thing is there's no guarantee I myself will get DDI, especially if it IS bad. What I'm tired of, is people judging something completely blindly, for a reason that has nothing to do with the product.

You can say what you want, you can scream until you are blue in the face. But, as I've said, IF DDI works as we've been told it will work, and you compare this to what's out there, it will completely and totally annihilate the competition.

There are plenty of gamers who are tired of searching for hours on the internet for a decent dungeon mapper, who want to be able to search databases, who want to be able to print their own tiles, who want an updated character generator and visualizer, a voice integrated tabletop, and they will pay for it.

As usual, it's always the vocal minority that is the loudest. There's what, 100 people on this thread out of the tens of thousands of gamers? I can see there's no arguing with the judgementally blind, have fun thinking what you will, but this is something a MAJORITY of gamers have asked for, and they are now getting it.

Malkyri wrote:

As I've mentioned, you've made your judgement, and you made it based on price alone, not on the actual product.

It is nice to know you can read my mind.

And for the record, stating a fact is not mocking anyone. If you can't afford something, you can't afford it, that's not mocking, that is a fact. Trying to make me seem like a bad guy so your argument looks better, accomplishes nothing.

It is also nice to know that you know how much money I have available.

As for whether you are the bad guy, you definitely do not need my help for that.

We have an entire thread of people saying DDI is overpriced. They have no other justification, they have no other reason, than the cost.

Generally something is only overpriced because of the cost.
Very rarely do you find something overpriced because of the color.

They don't think about what is doing for hobby gaming, or anything. They, like you, have no idea how good or bad the product will be. You mention RPG products are rarely delayed. DDI is far beyond anything ever imagined by a gaming company, it is much more like a game, which are very often delayed.

So now we are all horrible people, not thinking about the hobby, condemning it to die because we will not subscribe to DDI?
Woe! Woe is us!

As usual, it's always the vocal minority that is the loudest. There's what, 100 people on this thread out of the tens of thousands of gamers? I can see there's no arguing with the judgementally blind, have fun thinking what you will, but this is something a MAJORITY of gamers have asked for, and they are now getting it.

So everyone who does not object assents?
And the majority of gamers asked for this, even though it was only people complaining online?

Malkyri wrote:

Why people rise up and rant and rave about something they have no idea about, I'll never understand. Let's look at this- consider it -instead of simply exploding because of seeing a $15 monthly fee. Here we go.

Firstly, $15 a month is 50 cents a day. That's it, fifty whole cents a day. I personally know gamers who easily spend $3 dollars a day on extra soft drinks/snack food at work, and then proceed to complain about having to pay out $15/month for something like this! HA! If you are truly so broke you can't afford this, then you undoubtedly couldn't afford the books, thus you are not WotC's target market anyhow. Moan about it all you want, but most people can find 15 bucks a month in their couch.

Secondly, STOP comparing DDI to WoW. They are completely, totally, ridiculously different. I've been lucky enough to play nearly every MMO out there, I've tried free ones, I've tried pay to play ones. I like WoW, it's fun, something to do. However, it is NOT DnD, and never will be, no online MMO will ever compare. Also, just because the game is popular, does not mean they have a lot of overhead costs, we have no idea how many people they employ in maintaining WoW, but I seriously doubt it's as many as folks think.

$14 a month is too much.

Yes so you waste $14 a week on snacks. With DDI that is $14 LESS you have to waste. The D&D product from what I have seen (And I have seen it, game table character generator and all) is NOT worth $14 a month.

Comparing DDI to WoW is relevent because they are both online services serving the same genre. I do not play MMORPG's because I don't like them. However that does not stop me from seeing the value one gets out of an MMO to a product for updates.

I don't care how much WoW costs (I think it too much as well, and I pay for it for my Fiance). WoW is overpriced as is. DDI offers LESS enjoyment per hour, and if it hits this price scheme will most likely be a rip off.

Because DDI is an online service it is definitely comparable to Warcraft.

I don't even LIKE Warcraft and find MMORPG's seriously wanting, yet I find them a better bargain than D&DI at $15.

Alex3 wrote:

Why is D&D's online extra content more expensive than a World of Warcraft account? >

I pay $15/month for AoC. It's just more of the mind numbing grind for exp then elite gear. On top of that, the pvp rules are totally unbalanced.

If WotC's game table and map maker are decent and cheat-free, I would gladly pay $15/month for the "more" balanced D&D ruleset and the ability to make/play custom adventures. Some way to share maps/adventure modules would be needed though. Then I could play Living campaigns from home. That would totally be worth $15/mo

honeynuggets wrote:

I pay $15/month for AoC. It's just more of the mind numbing grind for exp then elite gear. On top of that, the pvp rules are totally unbalanced.

If WotC's game table and map maker are decent and cheat-free, I would gladly pay $15/month for the "more" balanced D&D ruleset and the ability to make/play custom adventures. Some way to share maps/adventure modules would be needed though. Then I could play Living campaigns from home. That would totally be worth $15/mo

What you propose is not unreasonable. If they adapted SOMETHING like NWN, where users could download other users premade dungeons and such, I might be more inclined to agree to a $15/month price.

Mournblade94 wrote:

What you propose is not unreasonable. If they adapted SOMETHING like NWN, where users could download other users premade dungeons and such, I might be more inclined to agree to a $15/month price.

I'm fairly certain that the Game Table and online Vault and other tools are supposed to facilitate sharing maps/adventures amongst the community at large.

I consider it appropriate to compare the cost of popular MMOs to D&DI. This is mainly because WotC made the comparison initially IIRC as they discsussed the pricing scheme being something between a magazine subscription and an MMO (I don't remember the exact wording).

The pricing that we see is now equal to that of popular MMOs and it is important to consider the relative value of what D&DI offers to that of MMOs and to the value of magazine suscriptions. D&DI appears to be hopefully a vaulable mix of both magaizine subxcription, online game table, and RPG related tools. What remains is to determine if what they offer has the quality and usefulness to justify the price given its hybrid placement between magazines and a psuedo MMO.

I consider what has ben described so far to be overpriced, but I am hopeful that WotC will take these boards discussions into account as they consider what will be included in the D&DI offerings and at what price.

rooster

I just thought of a way to make it worth 15/month hell even 20, if WotC add AI NPCs to follow a character through a dungeon, I could see people using the game as a method of seeing how a group would work against a dungeon quite easily, thus allowing during "downtime" something for the players (set PCs to 1 and NPCs to whatever your party is, practicing how certain skills, spells, or abilities will work before taking it into a game) and DMs (set PCs to 0, set up nNPCs equivalent to your group, sit back, and watch the onslaught, shows you how monster abilities work, and possibly how difficult the encounter would be for your PCs) but i SERIOUSLY doubt WotC will do this as they would have already been bragging bout the AI, ability for characters and DMs to "practice" etc....but again i have the funds, i just dont like taking pencil and paper and making it another online rpg

Malkyri wrote:

You can't Ixious, the paper version of Dragon no longer exists. I hate that too, but, nothing we can do about it.

Well, that's not strictly true.

Speaking for myself, I'm interested in the Dungeon and Dragon content, but not interested enough to pay $15/month for it. I have the disposable income; the value proposition just isn't there for me. I'm not interested in any of the other pieces of D&DI at this time. I'm sure they're very interesting and there's a market for them, but I'm not it.

Assuming I'm not alone in that, it behooves WotC to come up with some kind of product offering that gets me to give them my money, assuming it can increase its profit by doing so. I have to think there's a price point for pieces of the D&DI offering that would do so.

Individual pdfs of Dragon and Dungeon will be available for purchase.

The thing is I agree with both sides here.
A) 180$ is not really that much money, just don't go out for dinner one time less a month and your good. Or maybe just instead of getting 800 TV channels downgrade to something that you might actually use after careful consideration of what shows you watch most.

B) From the looks of it, you are mostly getting the "convenience" of having all the online stuff right at your finger tips and of professional quality. For some people they will never use this stuff and others I guarantee you will make maps for the fun of it like every day and get their moneys worth out of it.

Honestly I find ~10$ a month on the ground, so right there is 2/3 of the cost.

mudbunny wrote:

Individual pdfs of Dragon and Dungeon will be available for purchase.

I hadn't heard that. I'll sure buy some of that when it's available.

pauldanielj wrote:

And 15 bucks a month? Who would complain about such a trivial amount of money? I can barely buy lunch for that.

i cant believe you just said that.

Shinjin wrote:

The thing is I agree with both sides here.
A) 180$ is not really that much money, just don't go out for dinner one time less a month and your good. Or maybe just instead of getting 800 TV channels downgrade to something that you might actually use after careful consideration of what shows you watch most.

Yeah... what do you do for a living that you are able to go out to dinner all the time and afford 800 channels?
I'm happy to hear you are so prosperous, but some of us just don't make that much money.

B) From the looks of it, you are mostly getting the "convenience" of having all the online stuff right at your finger tips and of professional quality. For some people they will never use this stuff and others I guarantee you will make maps for the fun of it like every day and get their moneys worth out of it.

Honestly I find ~10$ a month on the ground, so right there is 2/3 of the cost.

Having the content online is way less convenient than my paper issues of Dragon.
In addition to the fee I have to pay for DDI, and also need to pay for printer paper and ink to print out the relevant articles I'll need at the table.

Malkyri wrote:

As usual, it's always the vocal minority that is the loudest. There's what, 100 people on this thread out of the tens of thousands of gamers? I can see there's no arguing with the judgementally blind, have fun thinking what you will, but this is something a MAJORITY of gamers have asked for, and they are now getting it.

Got any proof??

If you did WOTC would have plastered it all over they're website long ago.

The thread's about opinion. and people are giving their opinion. You shouldn't flip out quite so easily. You like the D&DI, great, others don't think its worth it, such is life. I don't see how the D&DI will revolutionize anything, everything they're offering has been around for years.

Most companies pay good money for marketing research to find out if people will want to buy their product, and at what price they would be willing to buy it. I'm a nice guy, and will tell them this for free:

I won't pay $15 a month for subscriptions to online magazines, even if a really cool character visualizer is included, and there are tools for doing online adventures. I would be willing to pay, maybe $20 for the tools and visualizer. The magazines... they'd have to be pretty amazing to get more than $1 an issue for online content that I can probably just pirate anyways (at that point I am donating money because I want to support the publisher/writers) I might be willing to go $0.50 each for PC online minni's if that is what my group wants to use, but monsters would have to be way cheaper.

Someone at WotC is insane if they think a decent number of people will pay $15 a month for the product they are offering. This product will only appeal to two groups of people- the wildly obsessed fanboys that MUST own everything D&D, and people that have no other way to game with their friends (out serving in the military, exiled to a deserted island, live in a bubble, or something like that) This is assuming that for some reason the people in the latter group cannot use any of the free, or reasonably prices online game tools already available.

I know some people out there will say "What about quality? What if the stuff WotC offers is really that amazing??!" I suppose it is possible, but after 3.0's e-tools debacle, and the current lack of useful release, I am skeptical, to say the least.

Looking better: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dn … s/20080806

Our current plan is to start charging for subscriptions before we have the client applications ready. That means the initial Insider subscription package will include exactly those parts that are currently in free trial mode: the magazines, the Compendium, and the bonus tools. The price tag for this subscription is as low as $4.95 per month, depending on how many months you are willing to sign up for. Specifically:

Web-Content Only Subscription Package:
12 Months = $59.40 ($4.95 per month)
3 Months = $19.95 ($6.65 per month)
1 Month = $7.95 ($7.95 per month)

I hope they keep this charging for separated things plan in mind.

Well it sounds like the plan is to have an invitational fee of $5-8 per month depending on how much someone is willing to pay and then jack the price up if the program takes off and is highly popular. Not a bad idea, but I think they may be a bit overconfident about how many people will stay if the price jumps $5-10 next year.

The only thing I'm interested in is the content I can bring to the regular gaming table - I have zero interest in playing online. Unless I get at least as many pages of useful material per dollar from this as I get from buying gaming books at the store I'm not going to be interested. For $60/year that would mean at least a few hundred pages of useful material. At $180/year it would have to be over a thousand pages. And fan-made material would count as a lot less, since in my experience it is generally lower quality and less generally useful, plus there's plenty of it already available for free.

Quite frankly, I'd rather pay more per page to have a finished book and help keep my local gaming store in business.

(Sidenote: SJG's Pyramid is $20 per year with weekly updates of around ten articles. That's great value for money.)

On the pricing information, I have a question. If I decide to lock in the low rate of $5/month by subscribing for a year, will it stay that way even if new components become available. For instance, if I join today for $5/month and in 6 months the character generator becomes available, but the price goes up to $10/month, will my subscription rate stay at $5/month or will I get surprised by an increase in my subscription rate to get the new components?

Basically, should I join now to get the lowest prices but the lowest amount of components or am I going to get screwed later?

DimitriX wrote:

On the pricing information, I have a question. If I decide to lock in the low rate of $5/month by subscribing for a year, will it stay that way even if new components become available. For instance, if I join today for $5/month and in 6 months the character generator becomes available, but the price goes up to $10/month, will my subscription rate stay at $5/month or will I get surprised by an increase in my subscription rate to get the new components?

Basically, should I join now to get the lowest prices but the lowest amount of components or am I going to get screwed later?

Others have asked this question as well. Gamer_zer0 is going to ask TPTB (the powers that b) about it and try to get back to us ASAP.

Likely options include:
[LIST=1]

The "full" package has an upgrade price

They could give it all to subscribers as a "thank you" to early adopters

May need to cancel the "low" sub and re-buy a new year at the "full" price.


Or they may come up with something else. Those are just the options I forsee.

Basically it is like this:

Do not listen to anyone from WOTC...they are payed to lie to you. If you look through the threads on these boards you will see WOTC has flipflopped over 100 times. DO NOT PAY UNTIL YOU SEE WHAT YOU ARE GETTING. Do not support substanderd content. If you pay $5 dollars a month for stuff you used to get for free WOTC will not improve its content or editing. If you do not pay for the crap they are trying to sell you right now they will improve their product till it is worth the price.

Ghostintheshell
(drunk but i can still see Dungeon and Dragons mags are worthless in their current form without even decent editing)

WolfStar76 wrote:

Others have asked this question as well. Gamer_zer0 is going to ask TPTB (the powers that b) about it and try to get back to us ASAP.

Likely options include:
[LIST=1]

The "full" package has an upgrade price

They could give it all to subscribers as a "thank you" to early adopters

May need to cancel the "low" sub and re-buy a new year at the "full" price.


Or they may come up with something else. Those are just the options I forsee.

I think the way they handle such an "upgrade" will be essential to whether or not people buy into it further. It'll be important for folks not to feel cheated and due to the sentiment around the pricing schemes and delays it will be all too easy for people to cry foul.

rooster

Ghostintheshell wrote:

Basically it is like this:

Do not listen to anyone from WOTC...they are payed to lie to you.

Well, not all of them are like that. But Randy Buehler, yeah, he is a "spin doctor."

Three words - Magic vs. Poker.

For those who don't know, Buehler used to be in charge of Magic and came very close to removing several core concepts from the game completely. Luckily, he was "promoted" just in the nick of time. His "Magic vs. Poker" article is considered one of the absolutely very worst ever written on Wizards, possibly of all time.

I'm gonna see if I can go dig that up.

Mournblade94 wrote:

$14 a month is too much.

Yes so you waste $14 a week on snacks. With DDI that is $14 LESS you have to waste. The D&D product from what I have seen (And I have seen it, game table character generator and all) is NOT worth $14 a month.

Comparing DDI to WoW is relevent because they are both online services serving the same genre. I do not play MMORPG's because I don't like them. However that does not stop me from seeing the value one gets out of an MMO to a product for updates.

I don't care how much WoW costs (I think it too much as well, and I pay for it for my Fiance). WoW is overpriced as is. DDI offers LESS enjoyment per hour, and if it hits this price scheme will most likely be a rip off.

Because DDI is an online service it is definitely comparable to Warcraft.

I don't even LIKE Warcraft and find MMORPG's seriously wanting, yet I find them a better bargain than D&DI at $15.

I don't think that MMORPG's and table top games are similar. If that would be the case I wouldn't even be playing D&D.

Personally, I am doubtful I will bother paying the $15 or $14 or whatever it is for the D&DI. However, I can not say their price is unreasonable either. Looking here at my handy-dandy Dragon Magazine that I only ever bought on occassion it is marked at $11. If you count both Magazines alone that would be $22/month to buy them individually.. if dungeon magazine was priced similarly. Now, I don't have the subscription cards here but I will guess they offer a savings for a year subscription, but then so is D&DI. Of course, with this $22 a month you would be buying a physical printed book. But even still you are already saving over $5/month just on the magazines alone.

Now you add in an online game table with nifty 3D graphics and planned voice communications. A character visualizer that can create custom minis for use on this game table. A character builder to make your nifty character have a character sheet. And the ablity to tie these together.. the mini linking to your stats, the game table using your mini. The dungeon builder and encounter builder for the DM, with easily accessible stats and information. And still all $5 less than the magazine subscription.

Well, that is still not all though. You also get a useful webtool for looking up powers, class and item information. Sure, it's not a full rules database but if Player A pulls out a power from the new expansion book he just bought and says he is going to use it to fry your planned longterm villian more easily than expected, well now you can just type in the name and check the rules right there and then instead of asking him to pass over the book, finding it in the book and hoping there isn't some errata that has been posted which changes how it works.

And what is this? That isn't all? No, my friends, that's right.. why is it an ongoing charge for these programs and features? Because on average 1-2 new books are released every month and what do you know but their information get's carried over to these tools. And not just that but the errata that are put out get pulled into this as well. Now that is a good bit of updating to be done. Plus the maintaining of servers used to store this information, after all they are offering a Character Vault and Campaign Vault that will host information about your characters and campaigns and have even mentioned being able to make your dungeon maps and adventure information available to other users.

Overall, that is a pretty expansive offering with a fair bit of updating, upkeep and maintenance to be done by their staff. And yet, all done for less than if you went to the store and bought a copy of each magazine off the shelf. I don't think the requested price is unreasonable at all. The real question is if what they are offering is worth paying it. If not then it is very possible that it simply isn't feasable for WotC to offer what they are hoping to offer here.

Ionly rate a PDF value of a magazine at abiout 33% of a real one. The new Dragon while not bad is only 80 odd pages long.

Actually it's 7 dollars a month or 5 (depending if you go for the month by month basis, or the yearly one)

At least that's what it says on the site.

Boris_the_Dwarf wrote:

Three words - Magic vs. Poker.

I'm gonna see if I can go dig that up.

Here it is.

MagicTheGathering.com Friday developer's article from July 2, 2004, written when Randy was director of Magic R&D at Wizards of the Coast.]We here at Wizards of the Coast have been getting a lot of questions lately asking how we feel about poker and the fact that some of the stars of our Pro Tour have been successful in recent poker tournaments. Are we worried about this newly growing competitor to Magic: The Gathering? The short answer is “ wrote:

We here at Wizards of the Coast have been getting a lot of questions lately asking how we feel about poker and the fact that some of the stars of our Pro Tour have been successful in recent poker tournaments. Are we worried about this newly growing competitor to Magic: The Gathering? The short answer is “no.” Anything that brings more interest and attention to the gaming world is ultimately good for Magic, because we've got the best game going. The long answer is more subtle and I want to take the time in this article to answer these questions and lay out our position for those of you who want more details . . . .

For starters, congratulations to Dave Williams. For those of you who haven't heard, Dave came in second place at this year's World Series of Poker. For his accomplishment, Dave earned $3.5 million . . . .

See http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/daily/af21 for the rest of the article.

Dave Williams still plays Magic. He finished 64th at U.S. Nationals last month.

Hell, if they could just modify the Neverwinter Nights engine...

I honestly dont know what everyone is so ****** off about. 15 dollars a month for what your getting is a good deal. I own every dungeon and dragon issue up to until they stopped printing them. so compared to what i was paying, its a good deal.

Also whats with all the people complaining about the price and then saying that they have no use for the tools.... MTB0gre has numerous humorous posts. come on man, if you dont have any use for the tools would you use em if they were free?

And honestly, you dont have to use DDI. its not like there isn't anyway to play 4th edition D&D over the net. *cough* Fantasy Grounds *cough*

What's wrong with them charging you for additional content they take time to make?

I don't want the tools or dungeon magazine. Can I just get dragon at less of a price

MerrikCale wrote:

I don't want the tools or dungeon magazine. Can I just get dragon at less of a price

Yes. There will be two subscription methods. a $10/month, and a $15/month. Also, there will be reduced costs for annual subscriptions, etc.

Oh, yeah, and who pre-orders the PHB and pays $35 for it? I got the three-book set for $60, with free shipping, pre-ordered.

As for the complaining about no free-month of DDI....are you paying for it currently? Or are you getting Dragon and Dungeons online-magazines, and the Compendium, for free?

...thought so.

Cohen95 wrote:

MerrikCale wrote:

I don't want the tools or dungeon magazine. Can I just get dragon at less of a price

Yes. There will be two subscription methods. a $10/month, and a $15/month. Also, there will be reduced costs for annual subscriptions, etc.

Oh, yeah, and who pre-orders the PHB and pays $35 for it? I got the three-book set for $60, with free shipping, pre-ordered.

As for the complaining about no free-month of DDI....are you paying for it currently? Or are you getting Dragon and Dungeons online-magazines, and the Compendium, for free?

...thought so.

What?

No, no. There are only two announced pricing plans:[indent]4.99/month for a year:

• Dragon
  
• Dungeon
  
• Compendium
  
• Bonus Tools
  

10.99/month for a year:

• Dragon
  
• Dungeon
  
• Compendium
  
• Bonus Tools
  
• Character Builder
  
• Character Visualizer
  
• Dungeon Builder
  
• D&D Virtual Gaming Table
  

[/indent]
There is currently no announced method of subscribing to Dragon, but not Dungeon.

Cohen95 wrote:

Yes. There will be two subscription methods. a $10/month, and a $15/month. Also, there will be reduced costs for annual subscriptions, etc.

Thats not what was asked. He wants to know if you can pay less and subscribe to Dragon alone. You can't. You have to pay for everything.

Malkyri wrote:

You can't Ixious, the paper version of Dragon no longer exists. I hate that too, but, nothing we can do about it.

Yes there is. Support Kobold Quarterly or Dragon Roots or any other actual magazine (lets face it, Dragon is no longer a magazine its web articles you have to pay for) that comes out.

Make WOTC realize killing Dragon magazine was a mistake.

Torg_Smith wrote:

The good MMOs are $15 per month if you pay by month. I heard it was $10 per month if you pay by year.

Yeah, but good MMOs are good MMOs. This is an online product from Wizards of the Coast. There is a huge difference in quality. Based on how poorly run these forums are and how glitchy gleemax was, they should be paying US when we use their online products due to the loss of time spent dealing with the DATABASE ERROR monster and the WSOD horror.

And that's not even entering into territory that Magic Online has trodden.

fodigg wrote:

What?

No, no. There are only two announced pricing plans:[indent]4.99/month for a year:

• Dragon
  
• Dungeon
  
• Compendium
  
• Bonus Tools
  

That is more... human. However, the "useful stuff for 5$/month" makes the "useless stuff for 15$/month" look even crazier.

KlausThePrince wrote:

That is more... human. However, the "useful stuff for 5$/month" makes the "useless stuff for 15$/month" look even crazier.

The $10 extra a month for the remaining tools is a very hard sell.

rooster

The Rooster wrote:

The $10 extra a month for the remaining tools is a very hard sell.

rooster

It depends on what you're after I suppose.

Seeing the products will help, but I'm skeptical.

rooster

The character builder did look nice, but it's nothing you couldn't do with scratch paper, a compendium, and your print screen button.

But yeah it's nice for saving time and turning out reasonable character sheets.

Cohen95 wrote:

Yes. There will be two subscription methods. a $10/month, and a $15/month. Also, there will be reduced costs for annual subscriptions, etc.

Oh, yeah, and who pre-orders the PHB and pays $35 for it? I got the three-book set for $60, with free shipping, pre-ordered.

As for the complaining about no free-month of DDI....are you paying for it currently? Or are you getting Dragon and Dungeons online-magazines, and the Compendium, for free?

...thought so.

I wonder how many people who are actually going to be paying for this are -not- going to subscribe to the yearly subscription? I don't understand why anyone would pay the extra $5/month, except possibly to try 1 or 2 months first, then going yearly subscription or dropping completely.

Anyone who is planning on going month to month permanently, can you please explain why?

TheOinodaemon wrote:

Yes there is. Support Kobold Quarterly or Dragon Roots or any other actual magazine (lets face it, Dragon is no longer a magazine its web articles you have to pay for) that comes out.

Make WOTC realize killing Dragon magazine was a mistake.

My problem is that DDI will be used to suppliment campaign setting material. Instead of putting out 10 Forgotten Realms books, they're putting out 3 and any other information goes in the e-mag.

That said, $5 is fine for two magazines.

Hippokrene wrote:

My problem is that DDI will be used to suppliment campaign setting material. Instead of putting out 10 Forgotten Realms books, they're putting out 3 and any other information goes in the e-mag.

And novels and adventures, but I understand what you're saying.

Personally, I love that. I want more core and more settings overall.

AsmodeusLore wrote:

I wonder how many people who are actually going to be paying for this are -not- going to subscribe to the yearly subscription? I don't understand why anyone would pay the extra $5/month, except possibly to try 1 or 2 months first, then going yearly subscription or dropping completely.

Anyone who is planning on going month to month permanently, can you please explain why?

I'll probably go month-to-month for one or two months. At least one month with the full subscription, just to give it a whirl. Once I settle on whether or not to get the full, I'll likely get the annual subscription.

15 dollars is nothing no matter who you are, if you really need it go beg for money on a corner of a street for an hour. The average salary of a begger is 29k a year (fulltime mind you)

Shinjin wrote:

15 dollars is nothing no matter who you are, if you really need it go beg for money on a corner of a street for an hour. The average salary of a begger is 29k a year (fulltime mind you)

That's not bad, I should drive into the city on weekends to supplement my income for my poor choices gaming purchases.

I know! It is actually true if you google it you can find the info.

Shinjin wrote:

I know! It is actually true if you google it you can find the info.

Yes, because teh intrawebz never lie. NEVAR!

[FONT="Comic Sans MS"]This is a very long thread so excuse me if I'm asking something that has been answered (pressed for time currently).

1. Will all content and rules and errata and clarifications from all new books be useable on all the DDi tools? If not lame. Although I can understand a two month delay in adding the content like Magic Online.

2. How valid and official will Dungeon or Dragon stuff be? Will I be able to use it in the RPGA campaigns? I know most GM's don't use or even look at the old Paizo Dragons because it was cracked out. Although Dungeon was more about campaigns. And my table used the RPGA ban and restricted list as a guide for our ban and restricted list.

3. Will DDi's online play be in conjuction with RPGA campaigns, or will those things be tracked separately? If separate, tisk tisk tisk.

4. Will the online dungeon be more than just a map? Things like having text pop up when players scroll over stuff would be awesome. Or text when players move through a door and etc. This would also be great for adventure making. And since user content is the way of the future for all forms of media, it would only make sense for players to be able to upload home created mods and adventures for the world to use. Maybe have a voting system and a view tracker, so people can weed out the crap.

5. 3D movement and hexes!?[/FONT]

deviknyte wrote:

1. Will all content and rules and errata and clarifications from all new books be useable on all the DDi tools? If not lame. Although I can understand a two month delay in adding the content like Magic Online.

The plan is that, for example, when you're using the Game Table and want to see how "Power X" works, it will be linked to the Compendium. Some reports are saying that the Compendium will gets rules updates before they're published in the Errata (since Errata has to be compiled and will be updated perhaps monthly, where the Compendium can be updated item-by-item I'm thinking).

2. How valid and official will Dungeon or Dragon stuff be? Will I be able to use it in the RPGA campaigns? I know most GM's don't use or even look at the old Paizo Dragons because it was cracked out. Although Dungeon was more about campaigns. And my table used the RPGA ban and restricted list as a guide for our ban and restricted list.

The RPGA CCG v1.6 (RPGA Downloads) lists the rules for what's campaign legal. This includes items from Dragon magainze - with the exception of magic items and rituals, both of which can be unlocked for Living Forgotten Realms via limited "access slots".

3. Will DDi's online play be in conjuction with RPGA campaigns, or will those things be tracked separately? If separate, tisk tisk tisk.

There are hopes to be able to create/convert RPGA modules for use with the Game Table (by those of us in the community, even if WotC/RPGA staff can't do it).

However there are no plans I know of to make play in the Game Table auto-report for RPGA tracking/points etc. This is due in no small part (I speculate) to the fact the the Game Table is a pay product (as part of D&Di), and the RPGA is free.

There would be other issues with allowing the Game Table to auto-report as well, including keeping track of when a module really is completed, not wanting to have too many things (like the Game Table) mucking about in the RPGA/DCI reporting database, etc.

It'd be nice if it eventually tossed up a form, perhaps, but I, for one, actually like the idea of keeping them separate for now.

4. Will the online dungeon be more than just a map? Things like having text pop up when players scroll over stuff would be awesome. Or text when players move through a door and etc. This would also be great for adventure making. And since user content is the way of the future for all forms of media, it would only make sense for players to be able to upload home created mods and adventures for the world to use. Maybe have a voting system and a view tracker, so people can weed out the crap.

Y'know - I'm not sure what "storytelling" tools are or aren't integrated into the Table. IE - Fantasy Grounds lets you prep an entire module. I think the Game Table is really just for mapping and battle tracking. You'd still want/need a separate place to keep your module. Perhaps WotC_DM can speak more to that.

5. 3D movement and hexes!?

Z-axis support (for 3D movement like flying/swimming) is not a launch feature, but it is "on the radar".

The Game Table is being designed with 4E support in mind, and since 4E doesn't use hexes, I don't think the Game Table will recognize them either.

You can still import your own maps, however. So if you draw a hex-map in your favorite mapping software and just import that with the hex-grid on it, I don't think there would be any problems.

I'd like to point you to Cart_Sprinter's FAQ if you have other questions.
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1045521

AsmodeusLore wrote:

Anyone who is planning on going month to month permanently, can you please explain why?

I'm thinking of going bi-month-to-month. If subscribing for a month continues to give you access to the issue archives of Dragon and Dungeon (really the only content I'm using and enjoying), I wouldn't have to subscribe every month.

Just drop $5-$10 (or whatever it is) every four months and download an entire season's worth of articles and adventures.

fletch137 wrote:

I'm thinking of going bi-month-to-month. If subscribing for a month continues to give you access to the issue archives of Dragon and Dungeon (really the only content I'm using and enjoying), I wouldn't have to subscribe every month.

Just drop $5-$10 (or whatever it is) every four months and download an entire season's worth of articles and adventures.

There was originally a plan in place that would grant you access to Dungeon and Dragon for the months in which you were a subscriber.

If that's still in effect you would only get access to every-other issue.

WolfStar76 wrote:

There was originally a plan in place that would grant you access to Dungeon and Dragon for the months in which you were a subscriber.

If that's still in effect you would only get access to every-other issue.

I believe this is still the case. However, you would get access to everything that had been added to the compendium when you were not a member, but you can only use it when you're a member.

WolfStar76 wrote:

There was originally a plan in place that would grant you access to Dungeon and Dragon for the months in which you were a subscriber.

If that's still in effect you would only get access to every-other issue.

That was mjy plan as well but I will likely get Dragon and Dungeon if nothing else.

fodigg wrote:

I believe this is still the case. However, you would get access to everything that had been added to the compendium when you were not a member, but you can only use it when you're a member.

Agreed.

I have no problems paying that amount as the DM. But the plan was to use laptops around the gaming table. I can't reasonably ask my players to pay this cost each.

I think this is one of the main issues. The game table sounds like a nice additional resource at a live table game. Unfortunately, most of my players are not going to go for the price.

rooster

The Rooster wrote:

I think this is one of the main issues. The game table sounds like a nice additional resource at a live table game. Unfortunately, most of my players are not going to go for the price.

rooster

If all are at the same table, only the DM needs to have a subscription. Oh and a computer able to hangle the load.

DayhawkSilverstar wrote:

I have no problems paying that amount as the DM. But the plan was to use laptops around the gaming table. I can't reasonably ask my players to pay this cost each.

Each subscription comes with "a number" of guest passes every month (what that number is/will be hasn't been disclosed yet). You can also purchase additional guest passes.

This leaves "face-to-face" groups that want to use the game table three options.

1) Everyone subscribes. Most expensive option, but each member of the group gets full unlimited access to the magazines, character builder, etc etc etc.
2) The GM subscribes and everyone else chips in for "stuff" as they see fit. This cost can be used to purchase needed guest passes, 3D minis and tiles, or for pizza money. Moderate cost, moderate returns. Players can only access D&Di features in 24-hour increments based on the activation of their guest passes.
3) The GM subscribes, but uses two different monitors, one for his view, and another for the player's view. Least expensive. Players get no direct access to D&Di, and have to rely on the DM to do it all (character creation, moving their minis, etc).

Pick one that fits your needs.

mtbOgre wrote:

Here's the thing, I don't need to see the tools to know I won't use them. I don't need a digital table top, I game with my friends. I couldn't care less about a 3d representation of my character that looks like a refuge from WoW and for far less than $180 I can pay an artist over the internet to make me a much nicer looking drawing of my character.



I'll draw it for free!

I certainly think partial subscription options, such as what we have now with the magazines separate fropm the table top will be needed to grab the most cutomers without alienating some of the interested customer and player base. I hope we only see more subscription options rather than any reduction after all of the tools are available.

rooster

The Rooster wrote:

I certainly think partial subscription options, such as what we have now with the magazines separate fropm the table top will be needed to grab the most cutomers without alienating some of the interested customer and player base. I hope we only see more subscription options rather than any reduction after all of the tools are available.

rooster

Does anyone know if WotC is going to change the subscription options after the tool go live? I had heard that WotC was only offering the $5 a month subscritption until the tool were ready then it went back to the $15 thing.

TheOinodaemon wrote:

Does anyone know if WotC is going to change the subscription options after the tool go live? I had heard that WotC was only offering the $5 a month subscritption until the tool were ready then it went back to the $15 thing.

This is an unanswered question.

I can see it going one of two ways.

Web content only (mostly ezines) remains an option renewable.

Once full suite available for fee, this will be only price with those that purchased web content only getting credit for unused potion.

I just wanted to pop my head in here and let you know that I am getting the information together, in one place, to help clarify the questions regarding pricing. a DDi menu of sorts!

I am sorry this has been so confusing, I will do what I can to help make this clear.

Solice wrote:

I just wanted to pop my head in here and let you know that I am getting the information together, in one place, to help clarify the questions regarding pricing. a DDi menu of sorts!

I am sorry this has been so confusing, I will do what I can to help make this clear.

I'd argue it's less confusing and more a matter of being simply "undefnied". Alas, because it's all been undefined for so long, it leads to rumors and speculation (guilty!).

If you really *can* get any solid pricing info, even with a notation that it's a *tenative* plan and subject to change, that would make a lot of people here VERY happy.

As for right now, there is no reason to pay ANY money for this stuff.

I do like the option of ezines being like 4.95 a month; however, I would like them to actually print an annual in hard copy of all the class acts, magic items, exploits as Yearly update and then if you do a path make it an actual print edition as well.

This is our current DDi pricing structure

For the full DDi features and content, Dragon and Dungeon magazines, compendium, bonus tools such as the encounter builder, the character builder, the character visualizer, the dungeon builder, and D&D game table.

• $9.95 per month if you commit to a 12 month subscription.
  
• $14.95 per month if you go month to month.
  

Web Content only: This would include the Dragon and Dungeon magazines, compendium and bonus tools such as the encounter builder.

• $4.95 per month is you commit to a 12 month subscription
  
• $7.95 per month if you month to month.
  

Does this help clear things up?
Is there something more that I could help clarify?

I think this is helpful Solice.

I think that one of the main concerns/complaints is the idea that what is offered is not worth the recurring monthly fee; that standard MMO pricing has been incorrectly applied to something that is completely different.

My thoughts at least.

rooster

Solice wrote:

This is our current DDi pricing structure

For the full DDi features and content, Dragon and Dungeon magazines, compendium, bonus tools such as the encounter builder, the character builder, the character visualizer, the dungeon builder, and D&D game table.

• $9.95 per month if you commit to a 12 month subscription.
  
• $14.95 per month if you go month to month.
  

Web Content only: This would include the Dragon and Dungeon magazines, compendium and bonus tools such as the encounter builder.

• $4.95 per month is you commit to a 12 month subscription
  
• $7.95 per month if you month to month.
  

Does this help clear things up?
Is there something more that I could help clarify?

At DDXP it was mentioned that a "full" subscription would include "a number" of guest passes, and that additional 24-hour guest passes would be available at an additional cost.

Any chance you can dig up where this plan currently stands?

Specifically:
How many guest passes are included with a full subscription?
What is the cost for additional guest passes (and are they sold in packs, individually, both?)

Solice's input is like a breath of fresh air to me, after reading through nearly all of this thread I was fast becoming anxious at the prospect of having to pay $15 a month for digital copies of the D&D magazines which were the only aspect of DDi that was relevant to my interests; I can't grasp how a few people couldn't grasp not wanting to pay $15/month for two magazines you'll definitely read, and six tools you might use (which is, of course, my own unique position, regardless, the point stands).

Hopefully Solice's post puts the issue to rest (or at least calms it down) for everyone else as well as it did for me.

Solice wrote:

This is our current DDi pricing structure

For the full DDi features and content, Dragon and Dungeon magazines, compendium, bonus tools such as the encounter builder, the character builder, the character visualizer, the dungeon builder, and D&D game table.

• $9.95 per month if you commit to a 12 month subscription.
  
• $14.95 per month if you go month to month.
  

Web Content only: This would include the Dragon and Dungeon magazines, compendium and bonus tools such as the encounter builder.

• $4.95 per month is you commit to a 12 month subscription
  
• $7.95 per month if you month to month.
  

Does this help clear things up?
Is there something more that I could help clarify?

When is that suppose to start?

Solice wrote:

Is there something more that I could help clarify?

In previous iterations of the pricing scheme there was a 3 month option for both the web-content and full subscriptions. Is this option still available? I'm updating the FAQ and would like to know.

Solice wrote:

This is our current DDi pricing structure

For the full DDi features and content, Dragon and Dungeon magazines, compendium, bonus tools such as the encounter builder, the character builder, the character visualizer, the dungeon builder, and D&D game table.

• $9.95 per month if you commit to a 12 month subscription.
  
• $14.95 per month if you go month to month.
  

Web Content only: This would include the Dragon and Dungeon magazines, compendium and bonus tools such as the encounter builder.

• $4.95 per month is you commit to a 12 month subscription
  
• $7.95 per month if you month to month.
  

Does this help clear things up?
Is there something more that I could help clarify?

Thanx for the info. Still not happy about the print magazines being taken away but the PDF subscription is quite cheap. Any ETA on DDI?

Zardnaar wrote:

Thanx for the info. Still not happy about the print magazines being taken away but the PDF subscription is quite cheap. Any ETA on DDI?

"When it's ready"

The tools will see a beta test ebfore being released in full, so until you hear betas are going well, just be patient a little longer.

Solice wrote:

This is our current DDi pricing structure

For the full DDi features and content, Dragon and Dungeon magazines, compendium, bonus tools such as the encounter builder, the character builder, the character visualizer, the dungeon builder, and D&D game table.

• $9.95 per month if you commit to a 12 month subscription.
  
• $14.95 per month if you go month to month.
  

Web Content only: This would include the Dragon and Dungeon magazines, compendium and bonus tools such as the encounter builder.

• $4.95 per month is you commit to a 12 month subscription
  
• $7.95 per month if you month to month.
  

Does this help clear things up?
Is there something more that I could help clarify?

Here's what I want to know before I entertain buying a "product":

If I get access to Dungeon Mag and Dragon Mag at $5/month, can I save the pdf files to my computer and keep them forever and ever? Or will they only be accessible through the DDi website?

Because frankly, I think any amount of money is too expensive to pay just for the privilege of viewing online content. I want something to keep.

(And to be honest, I don't think an extra $60 is a good value for a virtual gaming table and a dungeon builder. I don't game online - and could for free at other sources anyway - and dungeon-builder software at $60 should be a permanent software download, not a web-based application. Just my thoughts.)

Solice wrote:

This is our current DDi pricing structure

For the full DDi features and content, Dragon and Dungeon magazines, compendium, bonus tools such as the encounter builder, the character builder, the character visualizer, the dungeon builder, and D&D game table.

• $9.95 per month if you commit to a 12 month subscription.
  
• $14.95 per month if you go month to month.
  

Web Content only: This would include the Dragon and Dungeon magazines, compendium and bonus tools such as the encounter builder.

• $4.95 per month is you commit to a 12 month subscription
  
• $7.95 per month if you month to month.
  

Does this help clear things up?
Is there something more that I could help clarify?

It's great to have the information laid out clearly like that.

As someone who lives in the UK, I was wondering whether they had given any thought to international pricing?

CrispyCrew wrote:

Here's what I want to know before I entertain buying a "product":

If I get access to Dungeon Mag and Dragon Mag at $5/month, can I save the pdf files to my computer and keep them forever and ever? Or will they only be accessible through the DDi website?

Because frankly, I think any amount of money is too expensive to pay just for the privilege of viewing online content. I want something to keep.

(And to be honest, I don't think an extra $60 is a good value for a virtual gaming table and a dungeon builder. I don't game online - and could for free at other sources anyway - and dungeon-builder software at $60 should be a permanent software download, not a web-based application. Just my thoughts.)

Considering you can download the magazines now, I think it is safe to assume that that won't change seeing as we are in the trial mode for the magazines.

And I believe that the dungeon builder, like the character builder; visualizer; and game table, is a permenant download as it isn't part of the web content pack.

Ranadiel wrote:

Considering you can download the magazines now, I think it is safe to assume that that won't change seeing as we are in the trial mode for the magazines.

And I believe that the dungeon builder, like the character builder; visualizer; and game table, is a permenant download as it isn't part of the web content pack.

I thought the builder and such were going to be web dependent as you would need to connect to create and house characters as well as have access to the latest updates like feats, etc.

rooster

The Rooster wrote:

I thought the builder and such were going to be web dependent as you would need to connect to create and house characters as well as have access to the latest updates like feats, etc.

rooster

The aplications do appear to be downloads, however web interface for some aspects appear to be required.
Example. It appears mapmaker can be fully used offline, but you need Game Table connected to upload the maps.
Character creator, can store characters offline and those stored can be viewed offline, however to level up a character you need to be online (unless that has changed) and clearly need to be online to play the character.

Ranadiel wrote:

Considering you can download the magazines now, I think it is safe to assume that that won't change seeing as we are in the trial mode for the magazines.

And I believe that the dungeon builder, like the character builder; visualizer; and game table, is a permenant download as it isn't part of the web content pack.

How do you know that these are permanent downloads? I thought they weren't out yet.

Cart_Sprinter wrote:

In previous iterations of the pricing scheme there was a 3 month option for both the web-content and full subscriptions. Is this option still available? I'm updating the FAQ and would like to know.

Web-Content Only Subscription Package:
12 Months = $4.95 per month
3 Months = $6.65 per month
1 Month = $7.95 per month

Full Subscription Package (including both Web content and client applications)
12 Months = $9.95 per month
1 months = $14.95 per month

Hope this helps! Thank you for keeping that FAQ up to date!

The Rooster wrote:

I thought the builder and such were going to be web dependent as you would need to connect to create and house characters as well as have access to the latest updates like feats, etc.

rooster

You need to be connected to the internet to download new updates, but they have said that they have gotten rid of the requirement to be connected to the internet for regular use.

CrispyCrew wrote:

How do you know that these are permanent downloads? I thought they weren't out yet.

Because they are part of the client price package for D&Di as opposed to the web content package. Plus I'm pretty sure it has been mentioned a few times in interviews and the like.

WolfStar76 wrote:

"When it's ready"

The tools will see a beta test ebfore being released in full, so until you hear betas are going well, just be patient a little longer.

To be honest I've run out of patience. I logged on to join DDi the day 4th ed came out when I bought the books. Wasn't up. After the lacklustre performance of WoTC lately with various thinngs, the abomination of the new realms I think our group is going to go back to 3.5 with a few houserules. We're playing 3.5 today. Might reeturn once some new books come out next year for 4th ed. Feels a bit incomplete and gets boring fast.

Zardnaar wrote:

To be honest I've run out of patience. I logged on to join DDi the day 4th ed came out when I bought the books. Wasn't up. After the lacklustre performance of WoTC lately with various thinngs, the abomination of the new realms I think our group is going to go back to 3.5 with a few houserules. We're playing 3.5 today. Might reeturn once some new books come out next year for 4th ed. Feels a bit incomplete and gets boring fast.

When 3rd edition came out, you could only buy the PHB.

CrispyCrew wrote:

When 3rd edition came out, you could only buy the PHB.

Had better support with dead tree Dragon/Dungeon. Dungeon stinks now but Dragon is okay. Also my 4th ed books have to compete with my entire 3.5 collection. Probably not fair but neither is life.