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WHERE ARE MY MAGAZINES!!!!



Damnit . . . .

I knew they would drop the ball on this one.

No ball was dropped. They are doing what they said they would do. Articles will be posted throughout October. After that, the articles will be collected into something that vaguely resembles a magazine (without all those benefits of being a magazine).

$10 a month seams too much for me. I play a lot of non D&D RPGS and while I picked up an issue or two of dungeon or dragon a year I in no way spent $120. That said I don't know what cost would be worth it to me, I understand the need to charge but when its a subscription to some articles I may use vs a new RPG book, I'll take the book (that would be $30-$50 I suppose) I hope a less expensive version is offered even if its older material or excludes some material.

This is my first time playing D&D do you know where to get the online version of D&D

TiwazTyrsfist wrote:

So, the Digital Initiative is off to a Rousing Start!

By which I mean, Where are the October issues of Dungeon and Dragon?

See, the print versions would have ALREADY BEEN OUT by the end of last month... So, it's not AT ALL illogical for us to expect them at the start of the given month, especially since you don't have any printing lag.

Basically, Paizo had to have the entire magazine at the point you need it, by the middle of two months prior. I.E. In order to get the September issue out on magazine stands for the end of august, they basicly had to have the articles all done and formated by late July or August, then send to the printer, get a proof, check it, get a whole print run, then mail them out to the stores...

Soooo, there is no reason that you SHOULD NOT be able to get the digital version ready by the 1st of the month...

Technically speaking the issue due out at the end of this month would, if published, be labeled November.

So really you're just waiting for your November Issue, due out at the end of October.

prchamb wrote:

No ball was dropped. They are doing what they said they would do. Articles will be posted throughout October. After that, the articles will be collected into something that vaguely resembles a magazine (without all those benefits of being a magazine).

can you give me a source for this? Not that I doubt you, but it is so dissappointing.
I'm open minded and willing to give the new digital format a try.
I'm not going to complain about nothing being released yet (hey every new thing has some bugs at the begining, and we're getting October free, right? I'm not losing any $$$)
But there's something nice about having a block of material to relax and read. having it fed to me peicemeal would be... unsavory.

Take a look at the "Welcome to Dragon" editorial in the Dragon section and Chris Thomasson's Blog (especially 9/24/07 "At the end of October, our first pdf issues will be out" and 9/26/07 "We spent this morning planning the rollout of content for Dragon #360 and Dungeon #151").

Somewhere was a post mentioning articles would be collected into a pdf at the end of each month. Can't remember where though...

Grimmjow1982 wrote:

This is my first time playing D&D do you know where to get the online version of D&D

Sorry Grimm, but it's obviously nowhere around here. We think that even those in charge of such things are not in charge of such things.

The articles for both Dragon and Dungeon relating to what would be considered Issues 360 and 151 respectively will begin hitting the site durring the month of October. The first Dragon article "Fortress of the Yuan-ti: The Lost Portals of Castle Serastis" is already live with an "Ecology of," article slated for later this week and more articles (Ampersand, Design & Development, Playtest Reports, RPGA Report, and more...) on the way. The Dragon home page will soon change to become a hub or collection for all articles relating to the most recent issue and will change each issue to reflect that. With the older issues being archived. Dungeon pages will soon follow and receive the same treatment.

--MJ

Wotc_Mark wrote:

The articles for both Dragon and Dungeon relating to what would be considered Issues 360 and 151 respectively will begin hitting the site durring the month of October. The first Dragon article "Fortress of the Yuan-ti: The Lost Portals of Castle Serastis" is already live with an "Ecology of," article slated for later this week and more articles (Ampersand, Design & Development, Playtest Reports, RPGA Report, and more...) on the way. The Dragon home page will soon change to become a hub or collection for all articles relating to the most recent issue and will change each issue to reflect that. With the older issues being archived. Dungeon pages will soon follow and receive the same treatment.

--MJ

you know, i read the fortress of the yuan-ti content as something i might have once seen as a web enhancement. its kind of disappointing that the magazine format has changed to something i need to go to every week so i can get bits and pieces tossed to me. what's worse, for someone like myself that only follows the dungeon content, i am further disappointed by not seeing any content beyond a preview. it is now tuesday. i have already read the entire "content" and found it wanting.

not to beat a dead horse or anything (but hey, while i'm here) if i were wanting to compare this stuff to the magazines (they have the same names and it's been mentioned that they would have a lot of the same content. if it walks like a duck...) i would be able to say that the magazines were vastly superior. at least they were complete and i got the article i was after when i opened the magazine, not mailed to me after they sent me the first few pages.

i guess when everyone was firing off questions, maybe one of them should have been "do you plan to deliver the content the same way as it appeared in the magazines or am i going to have to commit to an entire month of waiting for the content i want?" but that's hindsight for you.

needless to say, this is not agreeable to me and this is not the way i would like to have the content delivered to me. it might work for website articles that you give away for free, but honestly would you pay for your car one wheel at a time?

dicemauler wrote:

it might work for website articles that you give away for free, but honestly would you pay for your car one wheel at a time?

Sadly I did buy my car one wheel at a time...for some reason I have 52 wheels in my garage and no car though...but I've been told that other content is coming, so I'll just wait and pay more.

DirtyBird wrote:

WHERE ARE MY MAGAZINES!!!!
Damnit . . . .

I knew they would drop the ball on this one.

I figured Insider might fall behind, so I'm printing them.

With articles by Ed Greenwood, Jeff Grubb, Nicolas Logue, Robert Schwalb, and Skip Williams.

Seriously.

dicemauler wrote:

you know, i read the fortress of the yuan-ti content as something i might have once seen as a web enhancement. its kind of disappointing that the magazine format has changed to something i need to go to every week so i can get bits and pieces tossed to me. what's worse, for someone like myself that only follows the dungeon content, i am further disappointed by not seeing any content beyond a preview. it is now tuesday. i have already read the entire "content" and found it wanting.

not to beat a dead horse or anything (but hey, while i'm here) if i were wanting to compare this stuff to the magazines (they have the same names and it's been mentioned that they would have a lot of the same content. if it walks like a duck...) i would be able to say that the magazines were vastly superior. at least they were complete and i got the article i was after when i opened the magazine, not mailed to me after they sent me the first few pages.

i guess when everyone was firing off questions, maybe one of them should have been "do you plan to deliver the content the same way as it appeared in the magazines or am i going to have to commit to an entire month of waiting for the content i want?" but that's hindsight for you.

needless to say, this is not agreeable to me and this is not the way i would like to have the content delivered to me. it might work for website articles that you give away for free, but honestly would you pay for your car one wheel at a time?

I agree, this is what we used to get for free, not the corporate model is going to kill it. I knew when I heard about DDI, this is what it would end up as...That's why I'm a pathfinder subscriber, and why I'm a 3.5 DM. I have enough adventures to run 3.5 for years...and years, and years...I have 3 excellent campaign arcs already to go, THANKS PAIZO! WotC should learn from Paizo...

Oh and I was a subscriber to both Dungeon and Dragon, and a purchaser of every Eberron, core, campaign, complete, race, monster and any cross campaign book which I could easily adapt to Eberron. I spent roughly 2k per year on D&D...I won't be crossing to 4E...farewell Wizards, *looks around* oh look, Deadlands Reloaded...not d20...hmmm....

prchamb wrote:

Take a look at the "Welcome to Dragon" editorial in the Dragon section and Chris Thomasson's Blog (especially 9/24/07 "At the end of October, our first pdf issues will be out" and 9/26/07 "We spent this morning planning the rollout of content for Dragon #360 and Dungeon #151").

That travesty of Dragon online launch was planned?

Yes. So was angering their customers and the 4 months of silence between the cancelation announcement and the 4e announcement at GenCon. All part of the marketing plan.

And yet you're still here. Must have worked to some degree, or else the angering and the cancelling and the silence and the error after error after error would have driven you away. In fact, it must be a really effective marketing plan to keep you on despite those things.

Yep. It hasn't convinced me to buy anything from WotC (exactly the opposite, in fact), but it has convinced me to stay around.

WotC announced they were taking the Dragon and Dungeon licenses back in APRIL. In other words, they've had _5_ months to work on content for an October issue.

if there is no "October" issue available in October (actually out in September in the print world) then we have been shafted by missing out an issue, especially given that October is the "Halloween" issue.

So, if this issue is going to be "Halloween" themed content (as in the past) then it's _not_ a "November" issue. And if it's an "October" issue, why do we have to wait until the END of October to get the whole thing (when in the past Paizo would have had it to us by middle of September).

Come on, don't be fooled... they had 5 MONTHS.

They had longer than that. They said they made the decision to kill Dungeon and Dragon over a year before the ax fell. Now we just have to wait and see if it was worth all the crap. My guess...

...no

Arunson wrote:

This set up sounds amazing. I want! I want!. What size is your table, which projector do you use, how do you mount your monitor on your chair. Give us the details, so that we may pillage your idea and make it our own.
Josh

We use Skype for the VTC. The table is...Well, I think it is two old closet doors. The projector is like one of theo ones you would find in a university classroom or a company board room and is mounted to shine straight down on the table. The web cams are mounted on my computer in CA with a monitor set where I used to sit at the table so the other players can see me, and a web cam set up by the projector so that I can see the mat. We are working on adding a web cam on the monitor at my seat at the table so that I can see the rest of the players, and a different angle of the playing surface. Also working on a remote cam that we can attach a laser pointer to so that I can point to the map.

The whole set-up works great, and fortunately we have a techie who can run everything.

ASEO out

I'm sorta guessing that they will save all the "glitzy stuff" until 4E. Not saying that I don't like what they have announced (because I am eagerly anticipating it), but it sorta looks like articles from the Paizo days that they didn't have the page count to include before the liscense switch.

Ecology of the Death Knight is sweet!

davethebrave371 wrote:

And yet you're still here. Must have worked to some degree, or else the angering and the cancelling and the silence and the error after error after error would have driven you away. In fact, it must be a really effective marketing plan to keep you on despite those things.

I tried to walk away when they canceled the print mags. All I proved is that I lack willpower (what's my Wisdom stat )? Fortunately for WotC, this is a win. I may be a disgruntled customer but I'm still here (as you said).

To be honest though, I am a much less steady customer now than before the cancelation. I don't buy two or three WotC sourcebooks a month anymore. That's the real fallout of all this untidy mess. And just because I didn't walk away doesn't mean other long-time customers weren't lost in the transition to online. Hard to tell what the true impact is (at this point).

There was and is no marketing *plan*; WotC got lucky. They are running these digital "mags" as a sideline activity only, and it shows. This is only my opinion of course; just throwing in my two cents .

As expected, the new online version of Dragon is very disappointing...

The articles format is ugly and amateurish, like what was available for free before. This is not inspiring at all, and I could not even convince myself to read it fully.

I at least expected something like a pdf version of a real magazine, with professional layout and style.

I cannot imagine paying for D&d Insider if WOTC do not improve hugely and quickly on content. Come on, even the FREE "Knowledge Arcana" e-zine is vastly superior !

I feel sorry for the artists whose good work was wasted because of this blog-like format.

physixdreams wrote:

I at least expected something like a pdf version of a real magazine, with professional layout and style.

I believe that is what you are going to get at the end of the month with the compiled PDF.

physixdreams wrote:

I at least expected something like a pdf version of a real magazine, with professional layout and style.

DMaple wrote:

I believe that is what you are going to get at the end of the month with the compiled PDF.

Will the compiled articles be presented in a new format?; that is, appear as if they were a part of an actual print magazine? If this is the case, it may be worth waiting for the compiled magazine. Is this for sure, or just conjecture?

I kinda doubt it myself; they will prolly be the same web-based articles, gathered up, and converted into one large PDF file. It would be more work to layout each article in true magazine format. Why make more work for yourself?

Its my belief that WotC is doing online Dragon/Dungeon merely as a "sideline"; a way to make a little extra money using those familiar names. This may change; I certainly hope so, because the magazines deserve better. I'm not holding my breath though .

Artifact wrote:

Is this for sure, or just conjecture?

Conjecture based on stuff I've seen in blogs and such, and because it's what the customer expects. To not do it would pretty much kill the DnD Insider initiative for many people.

Why make more work for yourself?

Perhaps because otherwise you make your customers unhappy and so they are less likely to sign up to pay for DnD Insider?

Its my belief that WotC is doing online Dragon/Dungeon merely as a "sideline"; a way to make a little extra money using those familiar names.

I doubt it because I think a lot of people aren't interested in the Digital Tabletop and can live without the tools, and a sideline isn't going to get enough people to subscribe.

The hardcopy Dragon articles on the Death Knight were far superior. The only saving grace was this was free, at least for now.

Malchior wrote:

...
if there is no "October" issue available in October (actually out in September in the print world) then we have been shafted by missing out an issue, especially given that October is the "Halloween" issue.
...

I'd hardly call anyone "shafted". The (presumably late) October issue is free as are the next few months. That's a benefit in my book (well, we'll wait and see the quality, but still... )

seeing as there has yet to be any dungeon material presented beyond the preview of things to come i thought i would weigh in on my opinion of dragon so far. granted october has only been here for a week, but in the scheme of things there are only 3 weeks left. are they finished with the dragon content yet?

i liked the content in the ecology of the death knight article. though the layout was horrible and i got the feeling that it was incomplete. i still think that the fortress of the yuan-ti was some sort of filler material that should have been left as a web enhancement.

however, i have to copy+paste the bit i got a kick out of when i read the editorial:

Nothing can take the place of playing the game around a table with your friends or flipping through the pages of a printed magazine article, and of course both of those activities will always be possible.

so basically they're saying that nothing can take the place of flipping through a magazine article? just not a dragon magazine article...

if this were on a shelf in a bookstore and i had the opportunity to flip through what is there... i'd give it a pass. seeing that the this thing is being released online and that, theoretically, everything should be done already, i am still having trouble understanding why it is coming out in installments.

i think that

davethebrave371 wrote:

And yet you're still here. Must have worked to some degree, or else the angering and the cancelling and the silence and the error after error after error would have driven you away. In fact, it must be a really effective marketing plan to keep you on despite those things.

yep, its like an accident with multiple fatalities on the information super-highway... you can't help but rubberneck.

The "Core Mechanic" article that appeared in the digital Dragon issue on 10/5 said:

The standard defenses remain (AC, Fortitude, Reflex, and Will)

I'm trying to figure out how much this will make 4E look like Star Wars Saga Edition, which uses Fortitude, Reflex, and Will defenses. Saga doesn't have AC or Defense, however, just the 3 Defenses. What do you think they will use AC for? Melee and ranged attacks? In SWSE, melee and ranged attacks target your Reflex Defense, so I'm curious to hear how other people think these defenses are going to work.

Obviously a wizard trying to charm someone is targeting their Will Defense, and the article mentions a dragon attacking Reflex Defense with its breath weapon. I'm sure poison attacks will target the Fortitude Defense, but can anyone think of why most "normal" attacks made by swords, arrows, rays, and fists wouldn't be against Reflex? Or have I just got it so engrained in me that you have to "hit" someone first, then get through their next level of Defense?

Hey folks, don't wait for a good layout. They only want to pay the cheap online-editors, who can fill in the content. Whon needs a good layout, if there is a character-creation-software?

I had some fun with this strange digital dungeon-moving game and the character-creation-tool. If I want something like this, I play NWN. But hey...why don't we just meet in front of a monitor and move our miniatures on the screen and use the digital dice to roll our attacks....oh sorry...why should we meet for roleplay? Why don't we all stay at home and do this on our own PC and talk via Skype. Oh...wait a moment...isn't this just a cheap version of online-gaming without good graphics? Blasphemic me!

I miss my Dragon-Edition. On my bed my magazines are towered up to extract all the older stuff...sob!

Good thing about E-content. Soon, you just have to be a "Insider" of a download-plattform somewhere else to get it. Just in theory, of course. I'm an honest consumer...no questions...no mourning...no cheating...just nodding. But maybe some of my evil players try to influence me with satanic ideas...

[sorry for bad spelling...my german's better]

Well call me old-fashioned but i can't exactly take my Dragon or dungeon to lunch with me in this format. Change for the sake of change is crap. There is a tradition that they (Hasbro) is over looking. I am a computer technician and as much as I love going to the site and reading what people are doing, it is not the same as taking the magazine into the lunch room/comode/car (on a trip) etc is it? Further what about satisfying our art needs?

Do not get me started on 4th Edition, a cheap-ass move to eliminate the D20/OGL and slap in the face to fans who have shelled out $1000s for the many 3rd ed products and now we have to START OVER LESS THAN 10 YEARS after the last edition came out. Pure corporate BS. But that's just my opinion, I could be wrong

Smaugdragon
Co-host of Mortality Radio
Author of Arrows of Aristemis

OK - for a lark I decided to pull up www.dndinsider.com on my PDA. I was not able to sign in. Wizards; please, give us a light-weight page (preferably a WAP page) or at the very least let us login without using javascript or ajax...

I can log into the forums, but that's probably because the forum software they use is friendly to handheld devices.

Smaugdragon wrote:

Well call me old-fashioned but i can't exactly take my Dragon or dungeon to lunch with me in this format. Change for the sake of change is crap. There is a tradition that they (Hasbro) is over looking. I am a computer technician and as much as I love going to the site and reading what people are doing, it is not the same as taking the magazine into the lunch room/comode/car (on a trip) etc is it? Further what about satisfying our art needs?

Do not get me started on 4th Edition, a cheap-ass move to eliminate the D20/OGL and slap in the face to fans who have shelled out $1000s for the many 3rd ed products and now we have to START OVER LESS THAN 10 YEARS after the last edition came out. Pure corporate BS. But that's just my opinion, I could be wrong

Here's some marketing for ya. The majority of the demographic that Dragon and Dungeon appeal to are males from the age of 25-45. They are obviously trying to gear more to the 18-25 age group so they can "catch them younger" as Blizzard did with World of Warcraft (computers are still a young man's forte) and of course all of the cigarette companies did the same. They didn't take in to account that their target demographic, if asked directly, find the bathroom to be the best sanctuary to read a darn book/mag. I hear everybody talking about taking it "on a bus" or "to the park" and what they mean by that is "to the crapper" as well as to the table to play. In any regard, unless we are able to all buy something a lot more portable and set up a table in the bathroom then I think that they are not doing their research. Come on..we're men..let's be honest we read in the crapper.
Josh Nauman

Aberzanzorax wrote:

I'm looking forward to 4E (with some mild trepidation), but this insider thing has got to be a joke. The only thing I can guess is that WOTC is highballing us now, only to drop the price to a mere (sarcasm!) $8.99 a month. Then we all (like good little consumer sheep) smile and pat ourselves on the back for getting such a great deal. I'm thinking It isn't worth any more than $6. How did I arrive at that figure? Well, $2.30 per magazine brings us to 4.60. Add another half price of a magazine and you get $5.75. I certainly don't think that being able to make my pc's online is worth more per month than a copy of dungeon or dragon. Even if I were to price it at the same value as reading a whole magazine, the total price would be 2.30 times 3, which is $6.90.

Keep preaching the good word my good man!

Just a note. The Dungeons and Dragons website appears on my blackberry and allows me to sign in to read the content. Not sure why it would not work on a PDA.

Maldreadior wrote:

Just a note. The Dungeons and Dragons website appears on my blackberry and allows me to sign in to read the content. Not sure why it would not work on a PDA.

How bizzare. Admittedly, I believe BBerries have a much better Javascript implementation than Windows Mobile devices (which is what I was using).

I'll have to see if I can pinch a test palm OS device at work and test.

However, if WotC can get a WAP implementation, they can then have the content available on mobile phones - which are still rather more common than full-up PDAs.

And now I found the sign-in box all the way at the bottom of the page - not where I expected it. That what I get for having the browser reformat :D (This was on a WM5 device, it does fail to let me log in on my older WM2003se PDA Phone due to "not having either Javascript or cookies enabled"; that could be related to other issues I'm having with the browser on that device though; I'm downloading an Opera trial to test).

But I'm happy now, I can read both Dragon & Dungeon in the head, or in bed with the lights out and my wife is sleeping. It's quite readable and the art resizes very nicely. Note - I could have done this with a non-phone PDA if it had wifi, probably a little faster.

Grabbed my wife's (rather elderly) conventional phone with its ginormous 1" diagonal screen and blazing 1xRTT speed and ... the page didn't load due to running out of phone memory. Ah well. Her phone is pushing 3 years old - a relic of an older, simpler time; before the new-fangled fancy on-phone browsers etc.

I'll see what one of my buddies with a more modern phone can test with - but it might not work based on the error my older device game out with.

Anyway, a nice little bonus for those of you with access to a PDA.

gleemax.com, OTOH, not so usable on a PDA, and popping errors besides. That may be fixed at some point, but please, WotC, test on mobile devices...

Smaugdragon wrote:

Well call me old-fashioned but i can't exactly take my Dragon or dungeon to lunch with me in this format. Change for the sake of change is crap. There is a tradition that they (Hasbro) is over looking. I am a computer technician and as much as I love going to the site and reading what people are doing, it is not the same as taking the magazine into the lunch room/comode/car (on a trip) etc is it? Further what about satisfying our art needs?

Hm. I wonder if there's a print market out there? Yes, yes, there is. If you want a magazine you can hold, please give KQ a chance.

Greg Bilsland playtest report is the best of them all. the rest I must say were pretty lame.

Good job Greg, You have built up my anticipation for D&D 4e. Which quite frankly has been waining, especially since you released Dragon online last week. I hope we see some improvements with that.

Thanks Greg

That was a good report! It reminds me a lot of things I did in a game I ran where magic was supposed to be overloading and running wild in certain areas, changing the environment dramatically... since they had guidlines for this sort of thing in the playtest kit, I wonder if it will appear prominantly in the DMG? maybe with CR-like characteristics... It would be great for running adventures in bizzar locations like the Dreamscape.

Iggwilv's Legacy's (part one) is now up. Read it and give your input.

Issues in the Coming Months
In the intervening months between now and the release of 4th Edition, we're going to be collecting our issues a little differently from you've come to expect.

At the beginning of November, we'll be releasing a pdf version of Dragon #360 and Dungeon #151. Future issues will be collected into a single issue every two months until the release of 4th Edition. So you'll see a collected issue at the beginning of January, 2008 (Dragon #361 and Dungeon #152), the beginning of March (Dragon #362 and Dungeon #153), and the beginning of May (Dragon #363 and Dungeon #154).

Dragon #364 and Dungeon #155 are currently scheduled to be our first all 4th Edition issues, with new layouts, more content, and all fully integrated with the new D&D Insider toolset. After those first 4th Edition issues, we'll resume a monthly schedule for both magazines.

So does this mean that you're making Dragon and Dungeon bi-monthly? So effectively we'd be paying, $10-15/month, so 10-15/issue? plus access to the rest of the DDI stuff?

rip-off....

Xaaon wrote:

So does this mean that you're making Dragon and Dungeon bi-monthly? So effectively we'd be paying, $10-15/month, so 10-15/issue? plus access to the rest of the DDI stuff?

Err the free access is bi-monthly so you will not be paying anything for them.

Once you start paying, should you choose to, the issues are planned to be monthly again.

I seem to be using the word planned a lot these last few posts as opposed to promised.

Where have you seen that written? I haven't seen them saying once it goes 4E they'd be doing monthly...I'm not paying for it, not buying 4E, etc., so buyer beware...it looks like a massive money sink marketing ploy to me...especially since they changed the original DDI price from 9.95/month to somewhere between 10-15/month... I'm guess they'll say 14.95...since they already referenced the MMO pricing...not that they are having to keep multiple servers up with lots of CS, bug fixes, updates, etc...to use a MMO pricing schedule for an e-zine is pretty ludicrous...

i think that the compiled .pdf's are going to be every 2 months, the articles will most likely continue to be weekly (i think they are still doing the monday-wednesday-friday thing).

there are also more things to be added to the d&d insider which might make 10 - 15 bucks a month sound reasonable... though i would much rather see something where i can pick and choose. i really only want the dungeon and dragon content and have no interest in any of the other features.

and on an unrelated note:

Please! Please! Please! For the sake of all that is good and wonderful in the world take a good, long look at the PDFs you have created so far for Dragon and never format it like that again.

Xaaon wrote:

Where have you seen that written? I haven't seen them saying once it goes 4E they'd be doing monthly...I'm not paying for it, not buying 4E, etc., so buyer beware...it looks like a massive money sink marketing ploy to me...especially since they changed the original DDI price from 9.95/month to somewhere between 10-15/month... I'm guess they'll say 14.95...since they already referenced the MMO pricing...not that they are having to keep multiple servers up with lots of CS, bug fixes, updates, etc...to use a MMO pricing schedule for an e-zine is pretty ludicrous...

The DDI pricing problem may be that they will no longer have ads to defray the cost to subscribers, and they have a much larger staff.

KQ charges just $16 per YEAR for a full magazine with layout. But I have a staff of 1, and the ads support the cost.

dicemauler wrote:

Please! Please! Please! For the sake of all that is good and wonderful in the world take a good, long look at the PDFs you have created so far for Dragon and never format it like that again.

Amen!

You have to admire WotC. They know people are upset with the magazines being canceled and the content going digital. They know people are looking at everything they do through a mircoscrope looking to point out every flaw. Knowing this, and having had over a year to prepare for taking over the magazines, they decide to go bi-monthly with the pdfs for Dragon and Dungeon - and in stating this, they mention that there will be less content in these bi-monthly pdfs than there will be in the monthly pdfs starting in June. Gutsy.

GhoulKing wrote:

The DDI pricing problem may be that they will no longer have ads to defray the cost to subscribers, and they have a much larger staff.

KQ charges just $16 per YEAR for a full magazine with layout. But I have a staff of 1, and the ads support the cost.

Yes and KQ rocks, you just didn't want my recurring article

prchamb wrote:

You have to admire WotC. They know people are upset with the magazines being canceled and the content going digital. They know people are looking at everything they do through a mircoscrope looking to point out every flaw. Knowing this, and having had over a year to prepare for taking over the magazines, they decide to go bi-monthly with the pdfs for Dragon and Dungeon - and in stating this, they mention that there will be less content in these bi-monthly pdfs than there will be in the monthly pdfs starting in June. Gutsy.

Not to be insulting to WotC or anything but I actually believe they are kinda like Paris Hilton in this respect. What I mean is, like Ms. Hilton, when they come under scrutiny and people criticize every little thing they do, they just give a demure grin and go on about their business as if nothing is wrong with the picture:

Paris: "Why does this always happen to me?" Undoubtedly she's said this more than once .

Mr. Loren Greenwood, President and CEO of WotC: "It is my belief that you will be pleased to see many familiar columns and features, as well as many new and exciting things online."

There is one thing Paris does well . . . and WotC doesn't have that going for them (not in that sense anyway).

Normally I try to be pleasant and nice when I post, but sometimes I do enjoy being snotty .

--Art

I write about what I want here, not commenting on anything else that has been said.

I've been a long-time Dungeon subscriber, and I've bought back issues so my collection is almost complete back to issue #6. When Paizo took over, I made a brief pause; their first issue was really weak. However, they quickly pulled themselves together; I am still a bit angry at myself for lapsing my subscription, as I still lack a few issues right after the transition. I am not going to make the same mistake now; thus I'm going to give wizards and DDI a chance.

Of course, the subscription price could discourage me. But since I live in Sweden, the price was pretty hefty before. And I will try to avoid the mistake of saying "I want this, this and this (in my case, basically only Dungeon), why do I have to pay for that and that? I can see the merits of having ONE tariff that gives access to all, even if I don't use all of it. In all likelihood, if you bout DDI components, piecemeal, the total price would be much higher. As a sales ploy, however, it might not be the best way to go about it - I know MANY people who balk at the unified tariff. They really need to sell this better.

Getting the magazine digitally and not on paper is a loss. It is a pain to browse a digital publication. I like to read on trains and such, and using a laptop just isn't as comfortable. This lessens the value of the magazine to me, reducing the overall value of the DDI.

Another thing I DO object to is when the tariff doesn't cover all the digital material. I can barely accept that you need to register your physical books in order to use the linked material. But having to bye virtual miniatures? They have to be VERY good to merit that. And if I bye some of my books used, will I be able to register them if someone else already has? I could accept a LOW separate fee for this service, but no more than 10% of the cover price. I am, after all, well within my rights to sell/bye used books, and abusing digital rights in this manner would really turn me off. I think a much wiser marketing ploy would be to release the digital material for free in order to market the physical books.

The one other service I'm looking forward to is the generators, both for characters and monsters. The plan for 3.0 was to publish such editors, but they never floated; 3.0 and 3.5 was simply too complex and too full of exceptions. With a simplified 4.0 they might actually work. The problem here is if I cannot continue to access my own materials if I let my DDI subscription lapse, that would turn me off. And possibly copyright issues, ownership of names and such. The DDI will probably have the usual insane EULA so in fashion these days, and even if these are questionably legal and can be challenged, they show off the very customer unfriendly and digital-rights-fascist corporate culture that rules in the US today. Finally, house rules. I want to be able to include house rules in my games, and preferably have the system handle the details. I realize this is difficult, and I can accept technical issues here, but again digital-rights-fascism would be extremely off putting. Depending on how these issues are handled, I might use the DDI or look for an open source solution.

One feature I'd love for such a generator to have is what I would call "random filler". When I build an NPC, I often have a few salient ideas; this is a male sorcerer, he has an imp familiar, and knows spell xx, yy, and zz, that are requitred for the plot. Once I've imput these details, I want a button saying "random filler". The generator fills in the blanks, making a full write out based on my sketch. If I don't like the result (or only part of the result), I can either go back and edit my sketch ir push "random filler" again to get another proposed character based on my sketch.

starfox66 wrote:

Another thing I DO object to is when the tariff doesn't cover all the digital material. I can barely accept that you need to register your physical books in order to use the linked material. But having to bye virtual miniatures? They have to be VERY good to merit that. And if I bye some of my books used, will I be able to register them if someone else already has? I could accept a LOW separate fee for this service, but no more than 10% of the cover price. I am, after all, well within my rights to sell/bye used books, and abusing digital rights in this manner would really turn me off. I think a much wiser marketing ploy would be to release the digital material for free in order to market the physical books.

I know its not nice to quote yourself, but one further thought on this; It has always been easy to get your hands on pirated PDFs of the 3.X rulebooks. The best of these have the advantage to be searchable, and I know some people prefer them because of that, but I personally find them vastly inferior to the printed book. If I think of using a certain book in play, I like having the PDF as a kind of preview to help me decide if I'm going to bye the book. But of I actually decide to use the book, I always get the printed version. In this way, the pirated PDF is a kind of advertisement.

I believe the DDI could work very well like this. It needn't contain all of the information in the book, just the information needed to use the generators and such, and that information would help sell the books.

starfox66 wrote:

One feature I'd love for such a generator to have is what I would call "random filler". When I build an NPC, I often have a few salient ideas; this is a male sorcerer, he has an imp familiar, and knows spell xx, yy, and zz, that are requitred for the plot. Once I've imput these details, I want a button saying "random filler". The generator fills in the blanks, making a full write out based on my sketch. If I don't like the result (or only part of the result), I can either go back and edit my sketch ir push "random filler" again to get another proposed character based on my sketch.

This is probably the most useful idea I have read on these boards in regards to the PC/DM tool set. I would definitely use a tool that could do this. Pure random generation is nice, but like Starfox, I usually have a few concepts in mind that I wish the randomizer would '"reserve" or lock in.

prchamb wrote:

To make and adventure myself? Offhand, I'd say 1.5 x [play time of the adventure] if I'm not very concerned about details. If I want the adventure to be memorable, I'll spend 3x or 4x play time on it.

Writing an adventure for me, that takes roughly 4-8 hours of game play easily takes 20-40 hours. But then I usually am setting up recurrent characters, plots, themes, regions, countries, etc.

I have to admit to some disappointment with the rate at with articles are being posted. There was a preview in December with a list of really cool articles that would be out that month and another list of January's articles. Well, we are halfway through January and the bulk of the December articles aren't posted yet and January isn't much further along.

Eberg I have to agree with you if this is the rate of articles we are to expect from the e-magazines then the value for money (both real or perceived) has dropped drastically.

I have moved from the view that I was going to subscribe to the magazines to having the view that it is not worth the hassle.

dicemauler wrote:

Nothing can take the place of playing the game around a table with your friends or flipping through the pages of a printed magazine article, and of course both of those activities will always be possible.

so basically they're saying that nothing can take the place of flipping through a magazine article? just not a dragon magazine article...

Pretty much. Dragon has an excellent successor though. Seriously, check out Kobold Quarterly.

zombiestorm wrote:

Eberg I have to agree with you if this is the rate of articles we are to expect from the e-magazines then the value for money (both real or perceived) has dropped drastically.

I have moved from the view that I was going to subscribe to the magazines to having the view that it is not worth the hassle.

I have to agree...... It's a sad thing but I feel that Dragon and Dungeon have been put on the back burner and subscriptions will be very low for a PDF product that is very late coming to order.... By now #363 should be well on it's way and the full PDFs for 361 and 362 should be up for downloads.

Bog97th wrote:

I have to agree...... It's a sad thing but I feel that Dragon and Dungeon have been put on the back burner and subscriptions will be very low for a PDF product that is very late coming to order.... By now #363 should be well on it's way and the full PDFs for 361 and 362 should be up for downloads.

As things currently stand, I cannot see myself getting a subscription;the quantity and quality of content just isn't there even allowing for the bi-monthly schedule. I'm also confused about the blurring of what Dragon and Dungeon cover. Let me explain, the recent article "The Walls of Taer Valaestas" starts with "When the PCs acquire the parchment, read the following:" this sort of article seems more suited to Dungeon; after all it's apparently addressing a DM. Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but it does seem a bit Dungeon-y. Dungeon 153 has had only one article and no columns during January so it's not like it's too packed for this. Similarly, although I like the snippets of 4th ed information I can't help but feel that this sort of information isn't really "Dragon" and would be on the site anyway, regardless of whether or not Dragon was still in print. After all, they'd be fools not to promote and try to drum up interest in their new product after all. We've also seen previews of products on the site before including web supplements. Not nearly as many previews, granted, but then again they were supplements and not a whole new system.

I also think basing their pricing strategies on MMO subscriptions isn't going to work out too well for them. I not sure they realise the difference in the value you get with a MMO and what we're seeing. If they plan on charging me MMO prices they should know that I expect MMO levels of commitment in return not just a drip feed of articles and some tool rental (I can buy similar tools for 3.5 outright, after all).

I'm still interested in what they can do, I'd love for them to turn it around so I'm thinking "is that all they're charging?" rather than "how much? for that?" However, with each fruitless visit to the site it's gonna take more and more to "wow" me.

At the beginning of November, we'll be releasing a pdf version of Dragon #360 and Dungeon #151. Future issues will be collected into a single issue every two months until the release of 4th Edition. So you'll see a collected issue at the beginning of January, 2008 (Dragon #361 and Dungeon #152), the beginning of March (Dragon #362 and Dungeon #153), and the beginning of May (Dragon #363 and Dungeon #154).

Personally, I've only seen one collected issue so far. However, I don't check here super often anymore (Gee, I wonder why that might be? )so I may have missed it if there's been more. But the above quoted statement shows that they are clearly very behind. I can understand that they may be busy pouring all their efforts into getting 4E up and running, but if they expect there to be any support for their digital initiative here then they are gonna have to prove to us that they want us here.

Phoenix8008 wrote:

Personally, I've only seen one collected issue so far. However, I don't check here super often anymore (Gee, I wonder why that might be? )so I may have missed it if there's been more. But the above quoted statement shows that they are clearly very behind. I can understand that they may be busy pouring all their efforts into getting 4E up and running, but if they expect there to be any support for their digital initiative here then they are gonna have to prove to us that they want us here.

If you want evidence of them being behind you have only to look at the "Playtest Reports" section of the columns page at http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drmst/columns

"Our staff is hard at work playtesting 4th Edition, and each week, we’ll give you a look inside one of our very own D&D games. These articles include plenty of homebrewed material, but we’ll be sure to point out when they’re stretching their creative muscles."

The last article was added on October 26th which, I believe, was more than a week ago. At this stage it's just embarrassing; every time I see that section it irks me a little, hell right now I'd settle for them just rewording that section (replacing "each week" with "periodically", "when the moons align and the dark calls to our blood" or, if you like accuracy, "when hell freezes over" might be more appropriate ).

pifil wrote:

If you want evidence of them being behind you have only to look at the "Playtest Reports" section of the columns page at http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drmst/columns

"Our staff is hard at work playtesting 4th Edition, and each week, we’ll give you a look inside one of our very own D&D games. These articles include plenty of homebrewed material, but we’ll be sure to point out when they’re stretching their creative muscles."

The last article was added on October 26th which, I believe, was more than a week ago. At this stage it's just embarrassing; every time I see that section it irks me a little, hell right now I'd settle for them just rewording that section (replacing "each week" with "periodically", "when the moons align and the dark calls to our blood" or, if you like accuracy, "when hell freezes over" might be more appropriate ).

Looks more like six months ago pretty soon.  Nice of WotC to keep everyone in the loop.

Up with the Dragon, down with the 'Net!

You know, I'm getting more and more excited about 4th edition, and even angrier that Dragon and Dungeon won't be around.
To be honest, I'll take Pathfinder instead of Dungeon, but Dragon....

PDFs are no substitute. I took out a subscription to Digital Hero, paid my money, haven't even bothered. Whereas I still read my print Dragons and Dungeons all the time - I've got 2, 3 copies of many issues so I can even read them in the bath.

Why the heck did we end up like this? They could have done all the Insider stuff without trashing Dragon. They could even have taken it back off Paizo despite the excellent work they did. The Races and Classes, Worlds and Monsters - would have rocked in Dragon. As it is, I read it in the shop because I was no way giving them any of my cash.

If I was reading all about 4th ed in Dragon, I'd be a happy, happy man. As it is, mnyeah, I'm still looking forward to it.

doccowie wrote:

Why the heck did we end up like this? They could have done all the Insider stuff without trashing Dragon. They could even have taken it back off Paizo despite the excellent work they did. The Races and Classes, Worlds and Monsters - would have rocked in Dragon. As it is, I read it in the shop because I was no way giving them any of my cash.

We ended up like this because "the internet is where people go for information these days."

That has to be my favorite quote on the WotC boards so far.

Any chance of D20 modern content?

dicemauler wrote:

We ended up like this because "the internet is where people go for information these days."

That has to be my favorite quote on the WotC boards so far.

“Today the internet is where people go to get this kind of information,” said Scott Rouse

It's a great quote. If I had gone to XP this year I would have asked Scott why he believes this. I can see an argument for Dragon magazine, but enough 3rd party publishers make money selling adventures that it's hard to see how this can be applied to Dungeon magazine.

prchamb wrote:

“Today the internet is where people go to get this kind of information,” said Scott Rouse

It's a great quote. If I had gone to XP this year I would have asked Scott why he believes this. I can see an argument for Dragon magazine, but enough 3rd party publishers make money selling adventures that it's hard to see how this can be applied to Dungeon magazine.

I don't see how it applies ot either, since, last I had heard, Paizo was making decent money off them both.

The_Grand_Artificer wrote:

I don't see how it applies ot either, since, last I had heard, Paizo was making decent money off them both.

It "applies" because Wizards wanted to have an online e-zine but didn't want to deal with competition.

prchamb wrote:

“Today the internet is where people go to get this kind of information,” said Scott Rouse

hrm looks like i got the quote wrong, i've been paraphrasing it for so long that i must not have been able to remember it in its entirety. still, it is my favorite quote.

Hi there,

I am looking for a reference somewhere in D&D 3.5 for the goddess Blibdoolpoolp. I have found brief mention in the MM1, but would like to find a better description of this diety. I wonder if Bibdoolpoolp was written up in an issue of Dragon? Can anyone give me an issue # in Dragon, or a rule/supplement book that covers this particular diety?

Thanks

Not in 4E

What do you want to know in Particular?

1978
1st Edition
D1-2 Descent into the Depths of the Earth

Aberzanzorax wrote:

$10-15 per month is a wildly absurd amount.

Agreed, and I don't even think you need all that math to prove it. I've said it before, but I'm trying to repeat it as much as possible -- WoW is not an appropriate comparison point for DDI. A much more realistic price target is XBox Live. All both services (DDI and Live) offer is an environment in which to play games and some varied support material. They do not actually offer the games themselves as part of the base cost. XBox Live costs $7.99 a month for a three-month membership. End of story.

Nemo_the_Lost wrote:

Agreed, and I don't even think you need all that math to prove it. I've said it before, but I'm trying to repeat it as much as possible -- WoW is not an appropriate comparison point for DDI. A much more realistic price target is XBox Live. All both services (DDI and Live) offer is an environment in which to play games and some varied support material. They do not actually offer the games themselves as part of the base cost. XBox Live costs $7.99 a month for a three-month membership. End of story.

THIS is the best "framing" of the cost argument I've seen yet.

While I don't think a monthly cost of $9.99 (on annual subscription) is too much to pay, I DO like how you've captured what's being offered.

Nemo_the_Lost wrote:

Agreed, and I don't even think you need all that math to prove it. I've said it before, but I'm trying to repeat it as much as possible -- Wow is not an appropriate comparison point for DID. A much more realistic price target is Box Live. All both services (DID and Live) offer is an environment in which to play games and some varied support material. They do not actually offer the games themselves as part of the base cost. Box Live costs $7.99 a month for a three-month membership. End of story.

Ummmmm... the difference here is that all you need do is buy a $30 book and you can play D&D with people all over the world all you want....
to use Box live, you have to buy a $300 console....and pay 60$ a game.
One $30 book.....$300 console and each $60 game you want to play...
I don't see it lol...
I think $15 a month is not a lot for this service....its .50 cents a day about.....I mean....50 cents......
When I cant afford that much I will have to take a serious look at my life because I am doing something wrong...
Besides you get more than just the ability to play D&D with anyone anywhere. You get a character creator, a dungeon maker, two magazines, and I am sure more that I do not even know about...
I mean really....whats the big deal?
And you don't even need it to enjoy the game, and people keep saying that is not the point, but it is...its optional, how can people complain about something so much that is optional?
Why do people think Wizards owe them something, that they should get all this free stuff...
*Shrugs*
Ill pay for it and be fine with it, and in the end, you will too if you want to use what they offer, complaining here wont get you anything.

WolfStar76 wrote:

THIS is the best "framing" of the cost argument I've seen yet.
While I don't think a monthly cost of $9.99 (on annual subscription) is too much to pay, I DO like how you've captured what's being offered.

Thanks, WolfStar.

While I consider the $120 a year more reasonable than $15 a month, it is still high, and I think the "offer" says a lot about the higher price point. Wizards can clearly afford to "give DDI away" for 33% less a month. That is a HUGE discount, unmatched in any other sector of the industry.

Dampiel wrote:

Ummmmm... the difference here is that all you need do is buy a $30 book and you can play D&D with people all over the world all you want....
to use Box live, you have to buy a $300 console....and pay 60$ a game.
One $30 book.....$300 console and each $60 game you want to play...
I don't see it lol...

The cost outside of the online system is irrelevant. I could make an argument that the costs of playing new games using either the XBox 360 or D&D are both theoretically infinite -- there is always new game software for the XBox and there are always more sourcebooks for D&D -- but it is immaterial.

XBox Live's price is not low because Microsoft is making its profit on the XBox itself. Microsoft loses $126 -- more than 33% of the MSRP -- on every XBox 360 it sells. This is not the case with Wizards and the D&D4 Players' Handbook.

See it now, "lol"?

I think $15 a month is not a lot for this service....its .50 cents a day about.....I mean....50 cents......When I cant afford that much I will have to take a serious look at my life because I am doing something wrong...

Yeah, and it is $180 a year. I already spend $96 a year on XBox Live and $156 a year on World of Warcraft -- two services that I feel are worth their monthly charges (and both of which I feel have more to offer than DDI, despite being cheaper). Adding DDI to the total would bring my yearly costs for entertainment maintenance to $332. It's not a question of being able to afford it. It's a question of getting value for my dollar when I could spend it elsewhere.

(For the record, I know that there is apparently a planned $10 a month option for DDI if you pay for a year at a time. While I consider this more reasonable than $15, it is still high, and I think the "offer" says a lot about the higher price point. Wizards can clearly afford to "give DDI away" for 33% less a month. That is a HUGE discount, unmatched in any other sector of the industry.)

Besides you get more than just the ability to play D&D with anyone anywhere. You get a character creator, a dungeon maker, two magazines, and I am sure more that I do not even know about...
I mean really....whats the big deal?

The big deal is that we are going to be overcharged for a service that does not deliver. The online play component and the character and dungeon creators are not content. They are tools, and for that matter they are tools you can get cheaper elsewhere on the Internet, minus the D&D brand. They will not even be populated with options unless you purchase those options separately (I acknowledge that this is up for debate, but I personally take Wizards' silence on the topic of virtual miniature booster packs to be a clear mea culpa). By all appearances, the two magazines are going to be inconsistent and badly written. Furthermore, I have no faith that there will be "more that you do not even know about," at least not without an additional charge. If you are willing to pay $15 for DDI, then more power to you. A fool and his money are soon parted.

And you don't even need it to enjoy the game, and people keep saying that is not the point, but it is...its optional, how can people complain about something so much that is optional?

Well, some of us would like to use DDI, but aren't willing to be ripped off. There are viewpoints in this argument other than "anti-DDI" and "pro-DDI," and if you can't understand that, participation is going to be very frustrating for you.

Why do people think Wizards owe them something, that they should get all this free stuff...
*Shrugs*

Who said anything about "free?" If you're going to put words in people's mouths, at least have the common indecency to be sneaky about it.

Ill pay for it and be fine with it, and in the end, you will too if you want to use what they offer, complaining here wont get you anything.

And attitudes like yours are exactly why criticism isn't going to do us any good.

Please read the manifesto in my sig before you reply again. It will save us both a lot of irritation.

Also, it's dhampir.

Nemo_the_Lost wrote:

Well, some of us would like to use DDI, but aren't willing to be ripped off. There are viewpoints in this argument other than "anti-DDI" and "pro-DDI," and if you can't understand that, participation is going to be very frustrating for you.

I understand this, and am willing to be "ripped off", for the record. 15 bucks a month seems a little high, 10 bucks a month seems a little low, to me, for the value of the character creation tools and DM's tools alone.

Nemo_the_Lost wrote:

The big deal is that we are going to be overcharged for a service that does not deliver.

That remains to be seen.

The online play component and the character and dungeon creators are not content. They are tools, and for that matter they are tools you can get cheaper elsewhere on the Internet, minus the D&D brand.

Some online subscriptions are for content, some are for services. DDI offers both. That doesn't make the tools not worth charging for.

They will not even be populated with options unless you purchase those options separately (I acknowledge that this is up for debate, but I personally take Wizards' silence on the topic of virtual miniature booster packs to be a clear mea culpa).

No longer true. The original plan was to need to unlock bits and pieces, but they announced at DDXP that that plan was being scrapped.

Instead all DDI subscribers will have full access to the entire Rules Database - and the Rules Database will have all the mechanics included. This in turn will port over to the character creator, be shareable in the Game Table, etc.

Not sure where you're going with the virtual minis. There's been quite a bit said. Packs will be non-random. The minis of all players connected to a table wil be pooled together for the GM's use. Minis aren't required as you'll be able to make your own 2D tiles.

Dunno if any of that addresses your concern, but those seem to be the main concerns I keep seeing.

By all appearances, the two magazines are going to be inconsistent and badly written.

At DDXP they said the magazines will include about 180 pages of content per month (or. . . was it 130? My memory fails me. . . I think it was in the R&D meeting, and should be in one of the YouTube videos from that presentation).

Furthermore, I have no faith that there will be "more that you do not even know about," at least not without an additional charge. If you are willing to pay $15 for DDI, then more power to you. A fool and his money are soon parted.

davethebrave371 wrote:

I understand this, and am willing to be "ripped off", for the record. 15 bucks a month seems a little high, 10 bucks a month seems a little low, to me, for the value of the character creation tools and DM's tools alone.

I would be willing to pay $10. As I said, the only thing I find shocking about the $10 price point is that it is so much lower than the $15 price point, and I wonder what that means.

WolfStar76 wrote:

No longer true.
...
Dunno if any of that addresses your concern, but those seem to be the main concerns I keep seeing.

This is all news to me -- thanks for setting me straight. This news could use to be spread around a little bit, as there is still quite a bit of debate on the subject on these boards, it seems.

At DDXP they said the magazines will include about 180 pages of content per month (or. . . was it 130? My memory fails me. . . I think it was in the R&D meeting, and should be in one of the YouTube videos from that presentation).

130 to 180 pages? I had never heard that before, either. That is a LOT of material. So much so that the number alone is enough to inspire incredulity. At any rate, Wizards has been saying a lot of things about Dungeon and Dragon. Their actions speak a lot louder than their words, though, and their actions have been weak.

WolfStar76 wrote:

At DDXP they said the magazines will include about 180 pages of content per month (or. . . was it 130? My memory fails me. . . I think it was in the R&D meeting, and should be in one of the YouTube videos from that presentation).

I'll believe that when I see it. Ever since WotC killed the magazines they've been making promises. They need to start delievering.

Besides 180 pages is a small book, I just find that number hard to believe.

TheOinodaemon wrote:

I'll believe that when I see it. Ever since WotC killed the magazines they've been making promises. They need to start delievering.

Besides 180 pages is a small book, I just find that number hard to believe.

That was for the two combined, I'm sure, and since that's the plan for when people are PAYING, they'll be held to those words with subscription money. (I also need to remember to dig out the laptop I took with me to DDXP and snag my notes to refresh my memory on what the count was. . . just so I'm not spreading misinformation).

Could it be "more rope to hang themselves?" Sure.

However I found a quote earlier today (I'll dig it up if you like) that indicates they're preparing to launch the mags in May.

So, hopefully, in just a few weeks we'll get a MUCH more representative sample of what's to come.

If you can find the quote that would be great. I'll look around and post it if I see it. I lost all my faith in WotC when they killed the magazines. It would be nice to get some of that back.

Ask and you shall receive:

WotC_Thomasson wrote:

As I said in the #151 editorial, not only is this a free preview period, of sorts (I mean, how preview can it be when it's 3.5 content and we're headed toward the 4th Edition release?), but it's a transition period. We're trying to get our launch in May ironed out, while getting everyone ready for the 4th Edition release.

WolfStar76 wrote:

Ask and you shall receive:

One of these days I might figure out how you link a quote like that. IAE I included a few others things said.

In the coming weeks, we'll have the Dragon #360 pdf compilation (it should be in to me from my typesetter very, very soon). The #151 pdf will follow shortly after. We'll also have the first #152 adventure, "Last Breaths of Ashenport," followed by an Anauroch short adventure by Greg Vaughan and an adventure called "Moagim's Clone," for high-level play by a fellow by the name of Ryan Smalley.

For #361, we have an article by Robert Schwalb coming out shortly, which details a pair of nasty villains who serve a new elder evil (which features in a massively nasty adventure in December). We'll also have a follow-up piece to the Grand History of the Realms, which talks in detail about the history of the Moonshaes, a sequel to "Infernal Aristocracy" from October, the Ecology of the Fire Archon, an article with rules for playing an epic binder, and more stuff.

I'm also hoping to get some old-skool comics up soon. I've got Stan! working up some sketches for me, and I've also talked to a couple of other former Dragon and Dungeon cartoonists about doing some work.

I know the content is trickling out a little slow right now. It will pick up in the next week or so. Oh, and more Design & Development articles (the bulette, more on magic items in 4th, quests, dwarves, and lots more).

It was of course posted 11/15/07 and in some ways might be considered a promise.

Kentinal wrote:

One of these days I might figure out how you link a quote like that. IAE I included a few others things said.

I "cheat" and when I find the original post I'm looking for I hit the "Quote" button there and just copy/past the code into my replies.

It was of course posted 11/15/07 and in some ways might be considered a promise.

Yeah, it has a lot of other stuff that didn't pan out, but I'd argue (and like to believe) that there's a difference between making a major goal (like the TRUE launch of the mags) and minor goals (like articles to be delivered in the pre-launch window).

Now, I'm not saying things will be instantly better on May 1st, but I'd like to believe that in early May we'll be seeing "the real deal".

WolfStar76 wrote:

Yeah, it has a lot of other stuff that didn't pan out, but I'd argue (and like to believe) that there's a difference between making a major goal (like the TRUE launch of the mags) and minor goals (like articles to be delivered in the pre-launch window).

Now, I'm not saying things will be instantly better on May 1st, but I'd like to believe that in early May we'll be seeing "the real deal".

I'll have to see it before i believe it. Ever since WotC killed Dragon they've been making promises and dropping the ball. Hell, they couldn't even come up with decent reasons for cancelling the magazines. Now their promises just ring hollow.


Thanks for the quote BTW.

I agree on that. I too will have to see it to believe it. And to see it, it had better darn well better be free when they want to "officially" preview it or I will never see it, as I'm not paying what they're asking for what we're currently getting.

Still, the quote Wolfstar has provided does remind me that they're promising a major boost in May. I have renewed hope that it may/might/could improve at that time.

Perhaps they've (at some point) decided just to cut their losses and put all efforts into an "actual" launch of the mags in may/june. (How I wish they shared that expectation with us in a meaningful way.)

Two things about that, though:
1. Why couldn't they have done that last August/September/October? Heck, they had from the annoucement in April 2007 (one year ago) to get this show started.

2. While I agree with Wolfstar that it is more important that they honor major commitments than minor ones, I have to point out that they have been very consistent in failing to honor a large number of minor commitments. This shows a concerning pattern of behavior. One, two, or even three times might be excusable. I personally can point to more than 10 instances (easily) in which they have failed to meet deadlines, deliver content they promised, or act generally as they said they would. In fact, at this point I'd have to say that their pattern has been one more of "unreliability and a lack of responsiveness" than the opposite.

TheOinodaemon wrote:

I'll believe that when I see it. Ever since WotC killed the magazines they've been making promises. They need to start delievering.

Besides 180 pages is a small book, I just find that number hard to believe.

I found my DDXP notes on my laptop, regarding "Editorial content" I have the following notes from Scott Rouse's part of the meeting:

• Editorial Content
  
  
  
  • Magazines
    
  • All rules information added to the Rules Database
    
  • Content is going to start ramping up
    
  • 160 pages of content every month
    

Now, obviously the 3rd point is. . . well. . . we've hashed that to death.

But it would seem the number of pages they're trying to commit to is 160 (where did I get 180 or 130 - damn my brain!)

160 pages per month, that appears to break down to 80 (or less) pages per mag. The or less depends on if the 160 includes other content pages that will not be in the mags.

Not sure how many pages of content has actually been released so far and of course page count depends on how one defines a page.

Just for comparison's sake, what were the Paizo mags? More or less than 80 pages each?

Dragon was around 120 pages, including advertisements.

I think Dungeon was about the same or a tiny bit smaller.

The final supersized issue of Dragon (#359) had 130 pages including advertisments. The previous issue of Dragon had 98 pages including advertisments ( I think it was maybe 70-ish pages of content including First Watch).

Yeah, if they get 80 pages for each of the magazines with no ads per month for a low price (I think they said that buying one magazine would cost $3) I believe that I would be incredibly happy with buying them each month.

SillyRobot wrote:

Dragon was around 120 pages, including advertisements.

I think Dungeon was about the same or a tiny bit smaller.

I'm going with the assumption that "pages" is how many sheets of paper will be needed if/when you run them off your printer. (As opposed to 160 web pages per month). ^_^

WolfStar76 wrote:

Ask and you shall receive:

WolfStar, forgive me for playing devil's advocate, but when was it decided that D&D4 would be released as one block of three books in June rather than one book every month from May to July? Are we certain that happened before November 15, 2007? This quote may be referencing an older release date for D&D4/DDI.

Nemo_the_Lost wrote:

WolfStar, forgive me for playing devil's advocate, but when was it decided that D&D4 would be released as one block of three books in June rather than one book every month from May to July? Are we certain that happened before November 15, 2007? This quote may be referencing an older release date for D&D4/DDI.

While I can't find the official news release, here's a quote of it from 10/19 in the 4E Rules forum: http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php? … ostcount=1

And no forgivness needed for someone playing Devil's Advocate. . . aside from the fact that you're sitting in my seat.

WolfStar76 wrote:

While I can't find the official news release, here's a quote of it from 10/19 in the 4E Rules forum: http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php? … ostcount=1

And no forgivness needed for someone playing Devil's Advocate. . . aside from the fact that you're sitting in my seat.

Just making sure. I hope Wizards is still planning to hit that May date and they've got a more cohesive, intelligible system to roll out for it. I am looking forward to really seeing what they have to offer.

I heard that many people are unhappy with the look and layout of the online Dragon Magazine. I would like to see screen resolution detection so it would look the same no matter what resolution you were in (with higher res photos for those with higher resolutions). I think I see a trend where more and more people use their computer in their living room and it would be nice if they could make it look good in widescreen as well. Also, they could take advantage of Microsoft's SeaDragon technology. I think the Zinio online magazine reader may already be doing that. It's like having a real time PDF reader with instant zoom. SeaDragon allows you to have books or images gigabytes in size and instantly goto and zoom in on any section.

Yeah,

When I first heard they were going digital, I was really dissapointed.

I hate reading stuff on my monitor.

I have downloaded a ton of (LEGAL) web enhancements for free, and I rarely read them in entirety until I find them interesting enough to print.


That said, there really is SO much that they could do to enhance a digital publication (great bookmarks/interconnectivity, excellent screen resolution, the "animated" comics of the emags, etc).


One of my dissapointments (really, of two- the other being a serious lack of total amount of content) is that they are not utilizing the new medium for more than a cheap way to publish. It has so much untapped potential that is remaining untapped.

I actually hope they keep things simple rather then try to make everything "cutting edge". Reason being because I don't want to have to update my computer just so I can read the latest issue of Dragon . As things stand now, my computer serves my needs, but if the online mags get too technical that will change quickly.

I can accept having to upgrade my movie collection every so often (say from VHS, to DVD, to blu ray) or my game console (say PSOne to PS2, to PS3) but I can't quite justify the same kind of expediture for my D&D hobby.

I guess I've just never thought D&D would be influenced by computer/internet technology; video games yes, but not my favorite pen-n-paper game.

That all being said, I agree with Aberzanzorax, the potential of the online format is not currently being tapped.

Aberzanzorax's Quote Show

While I'm here, I have something that's been making me scratch my head and which I need to get off my chest. I'll try not to ramble .

One of the reasons they decided to cancel the print mags was because the internet is where the action is now (to make the argument brief). I went into GameStop the other day however and renewed my Edge Card membership. With that membership I got a year's subscription to GameInformer magazine. I forget what I paid for it, but for the most part, the subscription was a *giveaway*.

If they are giving away subscriptions to a print mag it must be because they have a sizeable audience already in place to support the product, yes? There are alot of video gaming magazines out there: EGM, Game Pro, etc. There is apparently an audience for these mags or they wouldn't all exist (despite the availablity of the same stuff on the internet).

I would imagine that EGM is the biggest of these and that GameInformer falls somewhere behind. It still has a large enough audience for its owners to giveaway subscriptions for say, $5.00 for a year? (Forget what I paid).

If a smaller magazine is able to do this (an ambitious marketing plan), why couldn't a mag with a 30 year history (DRAGON) at least survive in the market? This just doen't make sense to me. Anyboy have any thoughts?