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4 years ago ::
Jul 07, 2009 - 12:50PM
#41
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I'm with the OP, get over it.
Teleportation is not Forced Movement. The Forced Movement term is used in the Push, Pull and Slide section because referring to that type of movement as Push, Pull or Slide Movement sounded stupid. Teleportation is it's own section after Push, Pull and Slide.
Never thought to Fireball the heads of Huge monsters, that's a good idea! In earlier editions I definately detonated Fireballs in the air to alter their radius or hit monsters in trenches and on the other side of walls.
Your mid Epic Tier when you get Elemental Maw, what is 55HPs falling damage to the monsters at that level - most of which are solos and can fly!
Personally, I like how 4e simplified 3D by making every square 1 sqaure away. No more 5, 15, 20, 30 b.s. And not having to calculate flight angles, lol, so awesome.
There are some... questions I have. Like is a PC considered in a five foot box vertically? I have been playing that Medium bipeds take up two stacked squares, like 3rd edition Tall creatures. Small bipeds occupy one square. 3D is something I would like to see addressed in DMG2.
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4 years ago ::
Jul 07, 2009 - 2:32PM
#42
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Date Joined:
Aug 19, 2005
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Oh, that's easy. Take a look at the L7 wizard power Twist Of Space. Note that (1) it targets will, and (2) it stacks with Enlarge Spell. Now compare this to other powers of the same level. Now consider honestly, what would be a more balanced effect for this power:
(a) 1d6+int damage + slowed
(b) 1d6+3d10+int damage + slowed + prone
Actually (b) should be 1d6 - 1 + 2d10 + IntMod + slowed + prone; about 19 damage average (with IntMod 4 and a +2 Implement).
Compare with Winter's Wrath, which is Burst 2 without Enlarge Spell and does 2d8 + IntMod plus IntMod again when the target starts its turn in the blizzard; 19 damage average (2d8 for 9 plus 4 IntMod twice and +2 Implement once).
Running through the compendium there's only a hand full of powers that powers that teleport an opponent further than 5 squares without a restriction like "adjacent to you."
Elemental Maw is the only one that really, really stands out, and the easy majority of these spells belong to Wizards, Swordmages, and Warlocks (Feylocks at that). Hell, I think some people would say "+Xd10 damage and drop target prone" to the text of every Feylock forced teleportation spell is a needed buff! 
I agree; I used the Compendium search to look at all the powers that allow teleporting an enemy and saw no real problems - including the poster child "Elemental Maw". Let's look at that one:
Elemental Maw (Wizard Attack 25):
The spell is burst 4, but only the creatures 2 or less from the origin square ('burst 2' effect, in effect, not Enlargeable) take the full effect, including the teleport, from being 'sucked in'.
Damage from being sucked in (target must be hit to be sucked) is:
6d6 + IntMod (basic damage) + 3d6 + IntMod (vortex) + 10d10 (fall)
Average = 21 + 7 (IntMod at L25) + 5 (Implement at L25) + 10.5 + 7 + 5 +55 = 110.5 average damage. Yes, that's a lot - but:
Prismatic Spray (Wizard Attack 25):
This spell is close burst 5 and hits only enemies!
Damage if the highest NAD is hit (one attack roll is made per target and compared to all NADs):
3d6 + IntMod + slowed + 3d6 + IntMod + 15 ongoing fire + stunned.
Average = 10.5 + 7 + 5 + 10.5 + 7 + 5 + 30 (ongoing does about twice its value, on average) + slowed + stunned = 75
Yes, the Elemental Maw does more damage per target, but it affects all creatures, not just enemies and its area of effect is far smaller (burst 2 vs close burst 5). Also, Elemental Maw needs 100' of headroom to work at full effect, making it situational, to boot. Bear in mind that 110 damage will not quite bloody the majority of L25 monsters and I'm really not unhappy with the "teleport drop" version of this power at all. In fact, without it, it looks decidedly underpowered versus Prismatic Spray.
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Balesir
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4 years ago ::
Jul 07, 2009 - 2:44PM
#43
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Date Joined:
Jun 30, 2008
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What class has an at-will teleport? A dominated player may only use at-will powers.
Warlocks now have a level 10 at will teleporting ultility power.
my handbooks & builds
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4 years ago ::
Jul 07, 2009 - 3:53PM
#44
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Date Joined:
Sep 26, 2001
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On a side note, does the "nowhere you can't walk" technically mean a swimming target is immune to forced movement as they can't "walk anywhere". I'd imagine most DM's will just treat it as "walk or swim".
IIRC, 'walk' is an action: move action, move your speed, like 'run' is an action: move action, move your speed+2. A swimming creature would use the 'walk' action to swim it's speed. As a swimmer, it can 'walk' in 3 dimensions (under water), so it could be pushed under water, but not out of it. A flyer could be pushed straight up. Of course, it wouldn't fall, because it's flying.
Forced movement apears to be forced /movement/ not simply moving the target. So, when you thunderwave someone, they don't lift off the ground and get tossed a couple squares back (if so, they'd likely be prone at the end of it), they're forced to back away from you, but can keep thier feet, and presumably backpeddal to do it.
Powers that force movement, and end the target prone could be visualized as more litterally tossing them about. Though, technically, they'd still be under the same forced movement rule.
Love 4e? Concerned about its future? Join the Old Guard of 4e"You want The Tooth? You can't handle The Tooth!" - Dahlver-Nar. "If magic is unrestrained in the campaign, D&D quickly degenerates into a weird wizard show where players get bored quickly" - E. Gary Gygax
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4 years ago ::
Jul 08, 2009 - 2:35AM
#45
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Date Joined:
Aug 24, 2007
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Running through the compendium there's only a hand full of powers that powers that teleport an opponent further than 5 squares without a restriction like "adjacent to you."
And so? 5 squares is still several d10. The primary spell where it matters is the heroic level Twist Of Space.
Because there is already the precedent of some teleporting powers specifically stating that this power can't teleport into the air. Thus all powers who do not specifically state this limitation can do it
Rules don't work that way. "A is not B" therefore "everything that is not A is B" is a patently obvious fallacy.
The manuals don't say you can pet kittens either. Or breathe.
And that is why neither petting kittens, nor breathing, has any mechanical effect in D&D.
Compare with Winter's Wrath, which is Burst 2 without Enlarge Spell and does 2d8 + IntMod plus IntMod again when the target starts its turn in the blizzard;
Winter's Wrath does more damage because it doesn't have a rider effect like teleport. (Damage + teleport, slow and prone) is a much better power than just (Damage).
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4 years ago ::
Jul 08, 2009 - 3:18AM
#46
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Date Joined:
Aug 19, 2005
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And so? 5 squares is still several d10. The primary spell where it matters is the heroic level Twist Of Space.
Twist of Space teleports the targets (it hits all creatures, not enemy specific) 3 squares - could do 1d10 damage on top of the 1d6+IntMod it does already, and it slows. Compare 'Enemies Abound' that has the same area of effect, does 2d8+IntMod damage and allows the targets to be used for flanking as if they were allies. Compare Fire Burst that does 3d6+IntMod to all creatures in burst 2.
Winter's Wrath does more damage because it doesn't have a rider effect like teleport. (Damage + teleport, slow and prone) is a much better power than just (Damage).
Winter's Wrath causes a blizzard Effect that enemies can be slid into to start their move there for IntMod damage, even if they were not in the area of effect when the attack was made. Sure, the effects of these various powers are different - it would be pretty boring if they were not - but overall they seem pretty comparable to me. The comparisons can go on - Chaos Storm with Rimestorm, Splinter the Formation (perhaps the most borderline one I found if you assume Censure of Retribution) against Light and Darkness - but they all come out within bounds that don't seem unreasonable, to me.
I hear over and over this "4E wasn't built for 3D" as if repeatedly chanting the mantra will make it true - but I don't think it is true. I think if you just apply the rules with a pinch of common sense to 3D they work just fine. They may allow some effects that you don't like, but that doesn't mean they are 'broken' or that those effects have not been considered by the design team.
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Balesir
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4 years ago ::
Jul 08, 2009 - 3:28AM
#47
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But for this to work, you would have 20 squares free above you. Hard to realize while in a cramped dungeon. By the way, a Level 25 Daily Power should have a kind of oomph, shouldn't it?
I play a control wizard in mid-paragon and absolutely love Twist in Space. It lets me reposition my allies, teleport enemies into the air, just to let them land at the feet of my companions, right in a delightful flank.
It did never occur to us, that this could not be allowed, as it is still in no way gamebreaking. Just a very nice control effect, that sucks if your dungeon is only 3 meters (2 squares) high.
I saw this and had to comment.
Are you making sure that your allies are getting their OAs for the enemy moving through a threatened space? Falling is also not considered forced movement and thus should provoke an OA (I'm being seriously, btb).
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4 years ago ::
Jul 08, 2009 - 6:10AM
#48
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Date Joined:
Jul 23, 2008
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vertical teleport is not fair, it will unbalance most powers.
use Sequestering Strike (Persuit Avenger level3): Level 3 Shifter trained in Acrobatics teleports his foe 4 Squares above the ground (+2d10) and himself 3 Squares (he is still adjacent and takes only 1d10). He can also reposition the monster horizontally. Said Shifter is trained in Acrobatics and will take a maximum of 4 damage, and has a 86% to not take any damage at all. The monster however takes 2[W] + mods + 2d10 and will be moved 5 squares and is now prone.
Do you really think that a level 3 enc power should be that strong ? Thats close to a 4 [W] power + two good effects - sound more like a daily ^^
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4 years ago ::
Jul 08, 2009 - 9:16AM
#49
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Put it like this: there is nothing in the manuals that says that you can teleport creatures into mid-air. Therefore you can't.
I also doesn't say you can teleport into difficult terrain, so does that mean you can't do that either? Heck, it doesn't say you can teleport into squares with blue flooring, so I suppose by this logic you can't do that either.
Adding restrictions just because the rules don't specifically block it doesn't make that restriction RAW. Spaces in the air meet all the conditions set for teleportation destination.
That being said, I can definately see them changing that later. After all, if I remember right forced movement didn't have restrictions on vertical movement when the rules first came out and it's been updated since then.
A good rule might be "If you teleport an opponent vertically the destination must be a surface that can support them." That way you can still teleport enemies horizontally off cliffs just like you could with forced movement, but you can't air drop them with teleport.
Granted, there is a way around that if there's a ledge in teleport range. Arcane Admixture + Mark of the Storm means a free slide with your teleport, but that's a two feat investment for a trick that's environmentally dependent.
Overall, I'd say teleport air drops probably weren't intended, but they're not really that game breaking either. Twist of Space is a great control spell, but it does about as much damage as an at-will. Boosting it up to the damage of other encounter powers might make it a bit too good, but it's not going to break the game.
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4 years ago ::
Jul 08, 2009 - 10:15AM
#50
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I had a DM disallow a shaman her spirit to hover over the fighter's head to attack an enemy in a narrow corridor that was blocked by our paladin and warlord, even when I pointed out that conjurations don't have to be on solid ground. He felt it was kinda cheap for the 4 allies below it to gain passive buffs and still be able to attack the enemy. When you're immobilized you can't move, but you can still teleport, and you can still be forcibly moved.
Use Restrained in the same example. You can't be forcibly moved while restrained, but you can still teleport.
Don't get me wrong, I feel +xd10 falling damage is cheap, but I'm a RAW person and therefor allow it since it's not against the rules.
For some reason, I was sure I read somewhere that when you teleport an enemy, you had to teleport them to a level surface, but I cannot remember where I read that.
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