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4 years ago ::
Aug 17, 2009 - 2:23AM
#421
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Date Joined:
Sep 18, 2007
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Scientifically teleportation isn't moving, because you can't move faster than light. It's 'travelling without moving'.
Kidding aside, if you don't want air teleporting but have a smartbum player in your game complaining about nerfing his spells, because he should be able to, by raw, teleport enemies in to air, you can apply this raw:
Teleporting is teleporting in to squares. Nowhere does it say anything about being able to teleport in a square on higher altitude. Nowhere does it say there are squares higher in the air, only on the map. He is entering the square. Nothing more happens than what happens when you normally enter that square, because the teleportation spell specifies nothing more to happen.
If he enters a tree square, he is up in the tree (as he had climbed in there). If he enters a pit square, he falls in the pit (as he would if he had entered the square normally. Unless he can fly ofc.). If he enters a flat square, he is standing there.
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4 years ago ::
Aug 17, 2009 - 2:34AM
#422
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EDIT: The only overpowered teleporting ability IMHO would still be the Ensaring Swordmage's aegis, since the only way you could counter it is to attack him (and even without the ability to teleport upward, he could readily just position you over hazardous terrain or cliffs... or even hang on the cliff himself and teleport you adjacent to him... where the only possible way to even allow a save would be if you grabbed him as you fall...).
Well you have to keep in mind, that keeping the balance of the game is pretty important. It costs an entire feat to get minor bonuses to damage in the realm of one or two points. Most of these feats don't even effect all the spells when it is a 2 point increase. What we are doing by allowing most of these teleport powers to deal fall damage as well is adding a MINIMUM of 2 points and an additional prone effect. It could be up to 20, 30, 100. Granted the 100 damage is a rarity.
Entropic Whirlwind and Temple of Seclusion are big issues of this extra damage situation. They don't even have to hit to get the extra damage which is 3D10+Prone. NO attack requried. It's a really big deal, and they are still very good without the falling addition of damage.
To Proin: The idea is that RaW is a specific thing and I was trying to point out the absurdity of using nothing more than RaW. Part of the reason it was easy to drop the argument when I was proven wrong was because I really didn't care if I was. It still took a rather long time to find the specific Rule (Which I was not aware of at the begning) to point out that the RaW I was invoking was bad.
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4 years ago ::
Aug 17, 2009 - 6:56AM
#423
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Scientifically teleportation isn't moving, because you can't move faster than light. It's 'travelling without moving'.
Kidding aside, if you don't want air teleporting but have a smartbum player in your game complaining about nerfing his spells, because he should be able to, by raw, teleport enemies in to air, you can apply this raw:
Teleporting is teleporting in to squares. Nowhere does it say anything about being able to teleport in a square on higher altitude. Nowhere does it say there are squares higher in the air, only on the map. He is entering the square. Nothing more happens than what happens when you normally enter that square, because the teleportation spell specifies nothing more to happen.
If he enters a tree square, he is up in the tree (as he had climbed in there). If he enters a pit square, he falls in the pit (as he would if he had entered the square normally. Unless he can fly ofc.). If he enters a flat square, he is standing there.
This interpretation has already been debunked
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4 years ago ::
Aug 17, 2009 - 8:12AM
#424
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Date Joined:
Aug 19, 2005
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Well you have to keep in mind, that keeping the balance of the game is pretty important.
Agreed, but what actual evidence do you have that this unbalances the game? You list powers nicely, but nowhere do you compare them with other (non-TP) powers of equivalent level. Without the tele-drop damage, they all do very significantly less damage than comparable powers. Now, this might be balanced, depending on just how useful the tactical repositioning turns out to be in practice, but I don't see anyone here posting any real evidence that that is so.
The real question, for me, given that vertical TP is allowed by RAW, is "are TP powers with vertical elements overpowered?" I.e. is a house rule needed? I don't think it is; I have seen no evidence that it is so far. I might be wrong (it's been known), but assuming that RAW won't work and that vertical TP is "obviously" overpowered seems pretty dense, to me.
It costs an entire feat to get minor bonuses to damage in the realm of one or two points. Most of these feats don't even effect all the spells when it is a 2 point increase. What we are doing by allowing most of these teleport powers to deal fall damage as well is adding a MINIMUM of 2 points and an additional prone effect. It could be up to 20, 30, 100. Granted the 100 damage is a rarity.
Er, yeah - understatement. The 100 damage would happen 1 time in 10,000,000,000 with the biggest drop feasible with one specific Level 26 power...
I've examined Elemental Maw (and posted elsewhere on it) - it's powerful, but then so are most powers of the same level. It's really not unbalanced, as far as I can see.
Entropic Whirlwind and Temple of Seclusion are big issues of this extra damage situation. They don't even have to hit to get the extra damage which is 3D10+Prone. NO attack requried. It's a really big deal, and they are still very good without the falling addition of damage.
I agree, no attack roll needed is a big deal; but the damage from the tele-drop is 2d10 (at level 29, fer 'eaven's sake) and 1d10 (at 16th level) respectively - prone if any damage taken after acrobatics/fly 'defences'. The bigger issue would seem to me to be the possibility of TPing over a cliff or into lava with "no save" - but that wouldn't require a vertical TP at all if suitable terrain was handy.
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Balesir
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4 years ago ::
Aug 17, 2009 - 9:52AM
#425
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Date Joined:
Sep 18, 2007
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This interpretation has already been debunked
I doubt it. But can't be arsed to search 15 pages.
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4 years ago ::
Aug 17, 2009 - 10:37AM
#426
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I doubt it. But can't be arsed to search 15 pages.
RTFT before posting. Especially if it's 15 pages long. Otherwise you just sound... silly.
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4 years ago ::
Aug 17, 2009 - 10:45AM
#427
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Generally in debates when one side makes an assertion, the other side can accept the assertion, or prove things otherwise. I'm not going to post every power in the books that are equal level because nobody would read it. Nobody reading the insanely long post would be pointless. Though if we use a couple of examples, we can surely come to a conlcusion. First Example
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Twist In Space (Targets 3x3 within 10)
1D6+Int, Teleport 3, and Slowed until end of your next turn. 2D10 Fall Damage, and Prone.
Also Targets Will which is basically like a +1.5 bonus to hit.
(This is what we judge all other things by as it is best)
Concussive Echo (Targets 1)
2D6+Int Thunder Dmg. Next time a target makes an attack each enemy within 3 of him takes 5 Thunder. Also Targets Will.
(Less Damage, No Prone, and No Slow, No Positioning Bonus, and Mob can avoid 5 Damage to radius.)
Enemies Abound (3x3 in 20)
2D8+Int Psychich damage and your allies can treat the target as an ally for flanking. Also targets Will.
(Greater Range, Less Damage, No Slow, No positioning, No Prone, And the Flank is not nearly as good.)
Fire Burst (5x5 Within 20)
3D6+Int Fire Damage. Also Target Reflex.
(Greater Range, and size. Less Damage and NO effects)
Lightning Bolt (Range 10 One Creature, and Secondary Attack)
2D6+Int, Lightning and Secondary Attack. All targets Reflex.
Secondary hit, 1D6+Int.
(Same Range, More surgical, Less Damage, No Effects.)
Spectral Ram (Range 10 One Creature.)
2D10+Int Force Damage, and Push 3, knocked prone.
(Perfect Example. Less Damage by 2D6, Same Control Aspect, and Prone. No Burst. No Slow. Harder to hit by 3 points on average)
Winters Wrath (5x5 Within 10)
2D8+Int, Cold Damage. Area is lightly obscured, and creatuers take damage at the begining of thier turn equal to Int Modifier.
(Larger Burst, Similar Damage, No Slow, No prone, No Teleport)
Nothing compares to the awesomeness that is Twist In Space, IF you add falling damage. In fact, I kinda think that even without the fall damage it is still probably the best since you can pretty much deny a monster an attack round by teleporting them 3 and having them only capable of moving two squares the next round.
Second Example
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Dire Banishment - This power is basically the same if you miss or hit. In fact, if you hit, you are likely to take damage yourself. If you miss, you dont do the power the way it normally works, and instead teleport it 5 squres. 4D10+Wisom Damage and Banishment that hurts you, vs 1/2 of 4d10+Wisdom Damage +3D10 Damage, and Prone. There is no downside to this power if you miss.
Basically just copied and pasted this because it's a good example.
Third Example
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For this example, we will be assuming that the Avenger uses a D10 weapon damage.
Sequestering Strike (with Censure of Pursuit)
One Target - 2D10+Wisdom and an additional 2D10+Prone (Assuming a 16 Dexterity). Furthermore, you get an attack of oppertunity on the target since it is leaving a square near by. You will also take 1D10 damage, and are far more likely to be capable of mitigating the damage by stacking athletics.
(This is what we judge is the best and what the otherw ill be held to)
Bound By Fate
One Creature - 2D10+Wis and Immobilize until the end of the next turn. Take Half Damage and redirect the rest to the target, from the next thing that hits you if you are still adjacent to the target.
(By Far Less Damage, and you are pinned down if you want to get a little redirect damage going. Immobilize is nice, but somewhat comparable to Prone since it's not Save Ends)
Deadly Stride
One Creature - Shift half your speed and ignore difficult terrain for the movement. 2D10+Wis Damage.
(By Far less damage. 3 Shift is not as good as 3D10 damage and prone, and it has no control aspect either.)
Deflecting Thunder
One Creature - 1D10+Wis Thunder damage. Redirect the next melee or ranged attack against you onto adjacent enemy.
(By Far less damage, with redirect an attack that doesnt necessarily hit.)
Enimity's Reach
One Creature in 5, targets Fort, but uses Implement. 1d10+Wis Thunder Damage, and Pull 2. Slowed until the end of the next turn.
(By far less damage, but the slow is nice but is quite comparable with the teleport distance)
Fury's Advance
One Creature - 1D10+Wis and Push 1 square. Taeks 3 extra damage for every ally adjacent after the push. You follow the shift with your own, ending adjacent to the target.
(If you can manage to push the target into a square with 7 adjacent allies, it is comparable damage wise with Sequestering Strike. Even with Censure of Unity, you're controlling 1 less square than you would with the SeqStrike. Plus, there is no prone. Close, but no Cigar)
Halo of Fire
One Creature - 2D10+Wis Fire Dmg. Adjacent enemies to the target take a maximum of 8 damage if you are censure of Ret.
(Still less damage, and no control, and no prone.)
Intervening Blades
One Creature - 2D10+Wis and target gets -2 to attack rolls. Can be used as an attack of Op if you're pursuit.
(Less Damage, No Control Aspect, and no Prone)
Sparkling Wounds
One Creature - 1D10+Wis and at the end of the targets turn, each enemy takes 5 Fire/LIghtning damage, or it takes 5 damage. +3 Damage if its already alone.
(Nowhere near the same amount of damage, no control, no prone.)
I particularly used Wizard and Avenger Powers because I have a Wizard and an Avenger who both use the particular powers I'm comparing all the others to.
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4 years ago ::
Aug 17, 2009 - 10:48AM
#428
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RTFT before posting. Especially if it's 15 pages long. Otherwise you just sound... silly.
RTFT?
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4 years ago ::
Aug 17, 2009 - 1:32PM
#429
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RTFT?
"Read The 'Freaking' Thread"
Related to RTFM ("" Manual).
To think that, after fifteen pages, you as a poster can come in and, without reading the entire thread before hand, post something assuming it's unique, and then, when someone tells you otherwise, dismiss that person's statement, is pretty stupid. Especially if you admit that you don't want to read the thread.
EDIT: not to mention that while "scientifically" teleportation wouldn't (necessarily) be movement in three dimensions it would still be movement in some dimension.
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4 years ago ::
Aug 17, 2009 - 1:51PM
#430
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Date Joined:
Oct 10, 2007
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When I have more time and I have a better understanding of the rules, I will read through this entire thread. It will be very useful as we have a similar issue in one of our games. The wizard casts fly and then goes straight up to and then just bombards the field with powers. The DM also does this will some monsters. Its fun and no one complains, but I'm curious to know if its allowed as I'm still learning the rules. 
Long Live Dragonlance and the Nexus! I still want an athasian nightmare beast and a warforged dragon mini! "Look, Meat, I'll tear your face off, rip your throat out and eat what's left-because that's what I do to food like you." ~Thrikreen Intimidation Tactic. My Custom 4th edition Content (New Content:2)
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* My Personal 4e Darksun Material found below:
Updated Weapon Options. (critical impact, repair, salvage)
http://www.4shared.com/document/bMZK2PNy/Updated_Optional_Darksun_Weapo.html
4th edition Athasian Sloth v1.2 (includes three monster write ups and a new disease)
http://www.4shared.com/document/lj561SRh/4th_edition_Athasian_Sloth_v10.html
4th edition Athasian Flailer v1.0
http://www.4shared.com/document/JGi9PqSe/4th_edition__Athasian_Flailer_.html
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