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4 years ago ::
Jul 06, 2009 - 8:08PM
#1
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I've seen several threads now about the 'abuse' of three dimensions and how 'a sane DM would never tolerate blah blah blah'.
The game is meant to function in three-dimensions. This means that you can fire flame bursts into melee if you target a huge monster's head, create unescapable traps with Storm Pillar, and teleport drop opponents.
This is a tabletop RPG, not Diablo 2. If you can't handle something as simple this then you shouldn't be DMing nor playing a controller.
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4 years ago ::
Jul 06, 2009 - 8:27PM
#2
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If the players do it, so can the monsters.
*I originally thought it was a clever title, but apparently i was wrong.
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F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.
Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.
Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.
King Fisher Does an excellent job at keeping an enemy disabled in a few ways. Strong.
Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.
Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.
Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.
Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.
Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.
Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.
Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.
Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.
Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.
Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.
Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.
Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.
Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.
Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.
The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.
Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power
Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken
Unnamed Avenger|Runepriest/Hammer of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.
Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.
Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.
Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight, only far more broken.
Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.
Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.
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4 years ago ::
Jul 06, 2009 - 8:39PM
#3
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If the players do it, so can the monsters.
Completely agreed. In fact, I doubt any players who utilize 3D tactics would argue that point, though it does bear mentioning as an argument for DMs who think it's "cheesy" and refuse to allow it.
First of all, player cleverness should not be discouraged and 3D tactics adds another layer to encounters.
Secondly, it's not game breaking if the monsters do it too. As a DM nobody's forcing you to constantly use Brutes and Soldiers. Use Controllers and Artillery more frequently, and heck you can even design the terrain such that monsters gain an advantage by using 3D tactics. More options = more fun.
Finally, 3D combat is implicit in 4E! How else can you have underwater and aerial combats? The 3rd dimension doesn't simply disappear during a "normal" fight on solid ground. Indeed, any character can jump over difficult terrain with an athletics check, climb ladders, fly with certain powers, etc. and so I really can't see a logical argument for banning "cheesy" 3D tactics.
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4 years ago ::
Jul 06, 2009 - 9:00PM
#4
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Date Joined:
Nov 16, 2007
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I there something that prevents combat from being 3d? I don't understand, I've been running everything 3d from day 1... What's the abuse?
Is it targeting above large creatures to avoid allies with AoE's? If that's the abuse, I'm not terribly worried. Large creatures already take up a good bit of space and are easy enough to catch without allies getting in the way.
I've run aerial combat, combat on the side of a cliff edge, played on rooftops, fought mounted combatants, etc. Even a simple staircase or a balcony make combat 3d, and I couldn't imagine it otherwise.
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4 years ago ::
Jul 06, 2009 - 9:36PM
#5
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Date Joined:
Oct 20, 2008
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I've run aerial combat, combat on the side of a cliff edge, played on rooftops, fought mounted combatants, etc. Even a simple staircase or a balcony make combat 3d, and I couldn't imagine it otherwise.
Absolutely agree.
And yes, teleporting PCs 20' up into the air, so that they fall on a fire pit, is something I have done as a judge :D
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4 years ago ::
Jul 06, 2009 - 9:39PM
#6
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Absolutely agree.
And yes, teleporting PCs 20' up into the air, so that they fall on a fire pit, is something I have done as a judge :D
As a judge, you've gone against the game rules unless this wasn't 4E. By the 4E RAW, you can't force teleport an enemy into a square that it couldn't get to without walking and vertical forced movement is also debatable.
Proud member of The Knights of WTF:
"All hail the Knights of WTF!!! Armed with only the Armor of Reason and the Sword of Mechanical Understanding we march!!"
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4 years ago ::
Jul 06, 2009 - 9:48PM
#7
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Date Joined:
Jun 29, 2008
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As a judge, you've gone against the game rules unless this wasn't 4E. By the 4E RAW, you can't force teleport an enemy into a square that it couldn't get to without walking and vertical forced movement is also debatable.
What's a judge and what does it do to prevent him from doing it? Because as far as I can tell, under the normal teleportation rules, there's nothing to stop it, so I'm assuming it's something in the judge part that prevents it.
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4 years ago ::
Jul 06, 2009 - 9:57PM
#8
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Date Joined:
Aug 22, 2005
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Judges ride Chocobos and teleport you into the slammer if you break the rules.
They must be on loan from Square-Enix! Everybody knows WotC uses ninjas!
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4 years ago ::
Jul 06, 2009 - 10:10PM
#9
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Date Joined:
Sep 21, 2008
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Forced teleportation might fall under "forced movement" through RAI rather the RAW, as specific teleportation that are attacks have the damage listed as part of the power.
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4 years ago ::
Jul 06, 2009 - 10:13PM
#10
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As a judge, you've gone against the game rules unless this wasn't 4E. By the 4E RAW, you can't force teleport an enemy into a square that it couldn't get to without walking and vertical forced movement is also debatable.
The only RAW part about teleport regarding where you can not teleport is a square that you can't be in without squeezing. As long as you have line of sight -- yes, even if it's teleporting through a keyhole -- you can teleport to a given spot.
So yes you can teleport enemies 20 feet into the air and cause them to land into a fire pit. Whether or not you add the fall damage is your call as a DM/judge as they would still take damage regardless.
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