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4 years ago ::
Jul 08, 2009 - 5:35AM
#51
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Date Joined:
May 28, 2007
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Yes, until futrther clarification from WotC unconsious is a high magnitude better than helpless.
But you should notify that you compare unconscious + slowed to helpless + immobilized.
Still better but not by that magnitude (compared to unconscious vs. helpless).
For the competitors of FoD:
I would never take Mordy's Sword or Ice Storm.
However, I agree that Wall of Fire is the logical second choice for a wizard of that level and Visions of Ruin is a close competitor to FoD.
I never said sleep is bad. Sleep and Flamming Sphere are the logical choices of level one. I just think it is to unreliable to be my primary choice comparing it to FoD. Even if you consider the powers to be area powers there are always primary targets you really want to hit and you really want to take out or at least hamper as much as possible.
Taking out secondary or tertiary targets is all nice and well, but in my experience it is really all about the primary target in most cases.
However, usually I will choose on a case to case basis the following two combinations:
Sleep/Wall of fire or Flaming Sphere/FoD with no preference if I have no idea about what to face.
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4 years ago ::
Jul 08, 2009 - 1:07PM
#52
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Date Joined:
Apr 21, 2009
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Sorry for all of that text, especially since what it boils down to is that I'm not sure how to best present the abilities of controllers in a user friendly manner.
Thanks for the detailed response! I was just thinking in terms of perhaps with each condition listed on the original post, make "spoiler" box below that lists all the powers by class that inflicts that condition as part of their potential effects. Still a load of work, but perhaps not as painful a formatting task.
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4 years ago ::
Jul 15, 2009 - 6:18PM
#53
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Date Joined:
Sep 23, 2007
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I wish a guide that teaches how to control with other classes (maybe some tips, hints, feats, etc)
specially with the new Hybrid Rules, you can build a truly controller by not getting any controller class at all
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4 years ago ::
Jul 20, 2009 - 3:52AM
#54
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I wish a guide that teaches how to control with other classes (maybe some tips, hints, feats, etc)
specially with the new Hybrid Rules, you can build a truly controller by not getting any controller class at all
I believe the "how to control with other classes" is already covered by the guide itself, albeit yes it might be a bit more interesting if you have non-controller class-specific control tips.
Even without the hybrid rules, however, you can build non-controller class controllers, since every class has some sort of crowd control or square-restricting feature; one example would be the Fighter class who specializes in both reach weapons and area-affecting push/pull/slide + ailment-inducing powers (although it would likely be Combat Advantage + prone or daze, sorry I haven't played Fighter yet).
Highlights from the original guide (and I quote):
- never focus on damage at the expense of status effects. Status effects are your bread and butter
- target the weakest defense whenever you attack a monster.
- You also need to know your allies!
- Controllers are all about affecting as much of the battlefield as they can
- if you can engineer the situation so that you scrap the turn of multiple enemies with one power, that's all the better
- A controller that focuses on debuffs is sort of an anti-leader.
So what have we learned here? That controllers... [list=1] prioritize status effects
make sure they hit the intended targets
affect as many [s]targets enemies as possible
cause enemies to do less than what they could do in a normal turn (if they can't or don't do anything at all against your party, all the better)
Can a paladin be a controller? Yes, but he'd have to invest in a lot of things since he's specialized in single target defending, and not group controlling. Can a fighter be a controller? Technically he already is a melee-based controller, but with the right investments yes he could be quite a good controller (potentially). Can a rogue be a controller? Likely yes, but he'd have to be less of a striker in some ways since he's investing into controller-like powers. Can a cleric|warlord be a controller? Possible but investing in debuffing items and summons may cause him to be less of a leader.
Situational? Yes. But possible? Of course. Heck, a party of 5 wizards could take all 4 roles since
- Magic Missile specialists could, at epic, cast 3 magic missiles per round (4 with AP, or 6 with Staff of Missile Mastery, thanks to Quickened Spell + Wizard's Fury), making one a striker
- Summoners or Staff users could go up front and be defenders since they [or their summons] could serve as meat shields if ever enemies do get past by Thunderwave spams and all that
- Wizards who multiclass or hybrid into leader classes, or would constantly attempt First Aid on fallen allies and provide flanking/combat advantage whenever possible, would definitely be able to take the leader role
- Wizards are controllers. 'Nuff said.
So a party who has hybrid/multiclass controllers|whatever combined with builds that focus on
- Status effect infliction
- Positioning of allies/foes
- Generally making life hell for the DM by limiting his options (instead of the other way around)
Would make any class controller-ish. Heck, tactics like tripping, grabbing/grappling, attempting a slash at the enemy's eyes, pinning enemies to the ground by targeting their clothing or what not, drugging/poisoning rations, and other stuff that do the above, are already controller-like actions...
... just not as good as those done by "true" controllers.
EDIT: Hybrid controllers (like Fighter | Wizard) are still controllers though.
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4 years ago ::
Jul 20, 2009 - 3:40PM
#55
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[size=+2] Controller abilities [/size]
Immobilized: Useless against ranged opponents unless you have a melee ally next to them. If they attack, they'll be punished for it. This is a great condition to put on melee opponents when you want to waste their turns. As long as you and your allies are not adjacent to them, they can't attack you. Can't charge you, can't chase after you if you decide to attack enemy squishies.
Prone: Similar to dazed, in that it can lock a melee enemy down if you and your allies are out of charging range. Combining prone with daze, slow, or difficult terrain makes it more effective.
Restrained: An upgraded immobilized with some debuffs to boot. Forced movement won't budge them, they grant combat advantage, and they take a -2 penalty to attack rolls.
It should be noted that these three effects are extra effective against flying creatures (such as dragons).
If you knock a flying creature prone, it crashes. That makes some of the lower level powers that knock creatures prone very powerful against the right opponent in the right situation.
Also, if a flying creature without hover can't move more than 2 squares, it crashes. So immobilizing or restraining a flyer can crash it.
At paragon and epic tiers, I would say that controllers should definitely have a way to knock a creature prone at least once per day. And it should be saved in case a flyer is encountered.
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4 years ago ::
Jul 20, 2009 - 5:15PM
#56
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Date Joined:
Sep 23, 2007
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what i was looking for was something like this:
a Compendium of useful feats'n'powers for non-controller classes that makes them controller (even if those feats are not class focused for them)
controlling is not a problem, but choosing the right feat is... specially for my Hybrid Earthstrength Warden/Warlock (vestige hybrid)
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4 years ago ::
Jul 20, 2009 - 5:21PM
#57
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It should be noted that these three effects are extra effective against flying creatures (such as dragons).
If you knock a flying creature prone, it crashes. That makes some of the lower level powers that knock creatures prone very powerful against the right opponent in the right situation.
Also, if a flying creature without hover can't move more than 2 squares, it crashes. So immobilizing or restraining a flyer can crash it.
At paragon and epic tiers, I would say that controllers should definitely have a way to knock a creature prone at least once per day. And it should be saved in case a flyer is encountered.
Thanks for pointing that out! It's a tactic I've used in play, but for some reason left it out of the guide (until now).
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4 years ago ::
Jul 20, 2009 - 7:43PM
#58
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what i was looking for was something like this:
a Compendium of useful feats'n'powers for non-controller classes that makes them controller (even if those feats are not class focused for them)
controlling is not a problem, but choosing the right feat is... specially for my Hybrid Earthstrength Warden/Warlock (vestige hybrid)
How many feats and powers would you like to take note considering that not everybody** has the time and patience to make a controller version of each and every class out there?
** the question is, is there anyone who could fit the bill?
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4 years ago ::
Aug 11, 2009 - 1:06PM
#59
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Date Joined:
Jun 26, 2004
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Truly love this guide.
I started playing a year ago (4th edition) and my first char was a ranger (piew piew twin striker) but ater playing in a home campaign with a paladin for some time I wanted an LFR character with more versatility than just twin striking from a distance.
I now play a human druid and your guide truly helps someone with little to no controller experience build a nice controller and play it correctly too.
Kamikazegerbil wrote:
Coke Spill
Level 1 Encounter Attack Power
Trigger: You must be pouring yourself a drink
Range: Close Blast 1D10 from Player
Target: All creatures and objects within blast
Attack: Any vs. Reflex
Hit: 1d6 Fizzy damage and target is wet (save ends)
Aftereffect: Target is sticky (save ends)
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3 years ago ::
Dec 16, 2009 - 11:47AM
#60
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Wow, the forum change made it even more difficult to edit old guides than I thought. Well, I fixed some of the formatting. Also updated a few miscellaneous things in light of new material. Most notably, I added the Psion and the Seeker to my controller classes section. I haven't played either of them though, so comments would be appreciated.
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