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4 years ago ::
Apr 05, 2009 - 4:22PM
#11
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Date Joined:
Dec 16, 2008
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However, when you are taking on a solo such as a dragon, or the as mentioned Orcus, daze becomes extremely powerful. Solos are solos because of the multiple damage actions they get to use in a single round.
This is true. Daze becomes more important when it inhibits a second attack and not just a move or minor action.
I guess the hard part with a guide like this is controlling for party composition. Status effects that grant combat advantage are a lot more valuable, for example, if you've got a rogue in the party.
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4 years ago ::
Apr 05, 2009 - 5:11PM
#12
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If you're a ranged creature and you get blinded, you're completely out of the fight.
Ranged attackers can use Perception to discern the square of a target as easily as melee attackers can.
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4 years ago ::
Apr 05, 2009 - 5:15PM
#13
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Date Joined:
Sep 16, 2008
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I guess the hard part with a guide like this is controlling for party composition. Status effects that grant combat advantage are a lot more valuable, for example, if you've got a rogue in the party.
I think that's why the OP just focused on the effects on the enemy roles. Combat advantage is to some extent useful for everyone, so that could be factored in, but I think a discussion of party composition should generally be avoided here. Don't get me wrong, it's relevant information, but leave that to the individual to factor in.
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4 years ago ::
Apr 05, 2009 - 5:32PM
#14
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Date Joined:
Jul 15, 2008
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I think that's why the OP just focused on the effects on the enemy roles. Combat advantage is to some extent useful for everyone, so that could be factored in, but I think a discussion of party composition should generally be avoided here. Don't get me wrong, it's relevant information, but leave that to the individual to factor in.
It is something that deserves consideration in a discussion thread though.
Take, for example, knocking a target prone. Usually useful on a melee enemy, but if your party features several ranged members (spellcasters and archers), knocking enemies prone becomes much less valuable as your allies take a penalty to-hit, since this is the opposite of what a controller wants to do.
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4 years ago ::
Apr 05, 2009 - 6:17PM
#15
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Date Joined:
Sep 16, 2008
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Take, for example, knocking a target prone. Usually useful on a melee enemy, but if your party features several ranged members (spellcasters and archers), knocking enemies prone becomes much less valuable as your allies take a penalty to-hit, since this is the opposite of what a controller wants to do.
Yeah, I see your point. I guess considerations of party composition might pop up more frequently than I originally thought.
Could party composition considerations be dealt with in the general notes on the effects rather than in the breakdown by enemy role? For example, if the OP includes notes specifically on prone, it could include something like . . . "Adjust the value of a Prone effect by -1 if the strikers in your party are mainly ranged." The earlier suggestion about Combat Advantage could be handled in the same way. Any condition that grants Combat Advantage could include the note "Adjust the value of this by +1 if you have a Rogue in the party". Would that work best to handle considerations of party composition?
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4 years ago ::
Apr 05, 2009 - 8:19PM
#16
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These suggestions/comments have been great! I've made some changes to the ratings based on the discussion. I think the next section that I'm going to work on is a discussion of the different conditions. This will be more generalized that giving a rating based on role, and it will also be easier to include things like walls and AoEs. After that, I will probably start a section on party composition (so keep those thoughts coming, as the sheer variety of different class/race combinations is daunting, as any one person has only limited experience in game). And of course no controller guide would be complete without a discussion of the strengths/weakness/differences of the Wizard, Druid, and Invoker (this will start out as very general, especially for Invokers since I haven't looked at the class much).
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4 years ago ::
Apr 06, 2009 - 5:41AM
#17
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Date Joined:
Oct 10, 2006
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@Alien: Nice to see someone started the work for other roles. Keep it up, I'd love to see more. Here are some ideas for other chapters:
- Keeping yourself alive: Controllers are usually the most fragile member of the party, so you either need to beef yourself up or add mobility to stay out of reach.
- Melee controllers (Wizard of the Spiral Tower, Wildshape Druid)
- Teamwork with defenders, leaders, strikers, and a second controller
- How to handle boss fights against single, tough enemies
- Wizard: Blast allies yes/no, reducing collateral damage
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4 years ago ::
Apr 06, 2009 - 6:24AM
#18
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Date Joined:
Nov 14, 2008
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You need a "6" for Stunned and a "7" for Dominated.  ("6" - Monster can't do anything. "7" - Monster helps you.) Also, those two will always have those numbers, regarless of monster role, so just put it on the top instead of putting them in every list.
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4 years ago ::
Apr 06, 2009 - 7:58AM
#19
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Date Joined:
Jul 15, 2008
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@Alien: Nice to see someone started the work for other roles. Keep it up, I'd love to see more. Here are some ideas for other chapters:
- Keeping yourself alive: Controllers are usually the most fragile member of the party, so you either need to beef yourself up or add mobility to stay out of reach.
- Melee controllers (Wizard of the Spiral Tower, Wildshape Druid)
- Teamwork with defenders, leaders, strikers, and a second controller
- How to handle boss fights against single, tough enemies
- Wizard: Blast allies yes/no, reducing collateral damage
Squishyness: Not always, I'm starting a campaign tomorrow where my wizard will have the highest AC in the party (17 thanks to Leather and Staff, the Warden and Barb only have 16s)
Blast Allies: The answer is always yes. A catchphrase from my last campaign where I played the wizard was "Do what the wizard tells you" because when it's the wizard's turn, bad things happen
Alien: Your section on prone is slightly incorrect, prone enemies only grant combat advantage to those who make melee attacks against them, so a crossbow rogue does NOT get CA
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4 years ago ::
Apr 06, 2009 - 5:35PM
#20
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Blast Allies: The answer is always yes. A catchphrase from my last campaign where I played the wizard was "Do what the wizard tells you" because when it's the wizard's turn, bad things happen
I disagree with you on this one, but you do have a good point about other party members "doing what the wizard tells [them]." The wizard is in a difficult situation because he/she really has to consider what the best possible outcome will be. Will the damage done to the enemies outweigh the damage done to the party? And what about status conditions? What role are the enemies, and what are your allies defenses? If you're using a power that targets Fort, and the burst contains two enemy lurkers, your Fighter, and your Hellock, your attacks are less likely to affect your allies, but have a good chance of hitting the lurkers. Does it do ongoing poison damage? If one or both ally is a Dwarf they're going to have a pretty easy time shaking it off. The problem is that enemy hit points are NOT equal to ally hit points. Monsters generally have more hit points but their attacks deal less damage, compared to Player Characters which have devastating attacks but fewer hit points (in general). Also, consider the fact that PCs usually need to conserve resources for future encounters, so not damaging them should be a high priority. The likelihood of the enemy's attacks hitting also needs to be factored in. Do the enemy's have low to-hit, and are engaging the sword and board fighter because they can't escape his combat challenge? Doesn't matter if your burst is more likely to hit them and miss the fighter; the battle can be won more easily by attrition, without risking injury to your ally (so you also need to consider, is your attack more likely to hit than the enemy's?).
While this may sound overly complicated, keep in mind that a rough qualitative sense should be enough. You know if the enemies have been hitting frequently, and assuming your DM rolls in the open you should have a decent estimate of their attack bonus. You should also have a good idea of how the defenses of your allies differ from each other (besides, you could always ask other players what their defenses are if you're really worried about hitting them).
So now back to your point about the wizard telling the other PCs what to do. You'll make life easier for yourself and your allies if you're aware of positioning before your turn comes up. Tell the fighter to shift out of melee if the enemy will not be attacking between the figher's turn and yours (the fighter can delay and attack after the enemy to optimize your initiative order tactics). You'll be much more likely to minimize friendly fire if you plan your turn out before it's actually your turn. The wizard should constantly be assessing the pros and cons of their actions, and constantly scheming up ways to tip the balance in their favor.
Alien: Your section on prone is slightly incorrect, prone enemies only grant combat advantage to those who make melee attacks against them, so a crossbow rogue does NOT get CA
Thanks for catching that! It has been edited.
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