If a Sorcerer uses a dagger as an Implement, he CAN use the dagger's Properties, he just can't use the dagger's Powers.
He meant proficiency bonus, not properties (or powers, for that matter).
"PHBII"]Sorcerers wield daggers and staffs to channel their wild arcane power. When you wield a magic dagger or a magic staff, you can add its enhancement bonus to the attack rolls and the damage rolls of sorcerer powers and sorcerer paragon path powers that have the implement keyword. Without an implement, you can still use these powers. Any dagger can function as a sorcerer implement. However, you don’ wrote:
Sorcerers wield daggers and staffs to channel their wild arcane power. When you wield a magic dagger or a magic staff, you can add its enhancement bonus to the attack rolls and the damage rolls of sorcerer powers and sorcerer paragon path powers that have the implement keyword. Without an implement, you can still use these powers. Any dagger can function as a sorcerer implement. However, you don’t gain a dagger’s proficiency bonus when using the dagger as an implement.
It specifies no proficiency bonus on dagger (and that "any dagger" can be used), but says nothing of the sort for staffs- because the staffs in question aren't weapons while the daggers are.
Also, the sorcerer can use the powers on daggers when using them as implements; otherwise the powers on, say, a Winged Dagger would never be usable.
16 pages devoted to "If all planes are vehicles, then all vehicles are planes. Thus my car can fly". Awesome.
To FallingIcicle. Saying a quarterstaff is not the same as a staff isn't the same as saying a longbow isn't a bow. A longbow is a bow. It's the same as saying a bow isn't a longbow. A plane is a vehicle, but a vehicle isn't a plane. A plane has all the properties fo a vehicle, but not all vehicles can fly. A staff is a quarterstaff, but a quarterstaff isn't a staff. A Staff has all the properties of a quarterstaff, but not all quarterstaffs can be used as impliments. People are mammals, but mammals aren't people. People are a subset of mammals that have all the properties of mammals, plus their own unique attributes. Someone in this thread said that a quarterstaff cost the same, weighed the same, and could be used in combat the same as a staff, so why couldn't it be used as an impliment? Well, mammals have fur, are warm blooded, and give birth to live young so why can't they speak? Because they're mammals, not humans. A specific subset of mammals can speak, and we call them humans. A specific subset of quarterstaffs can be used as impliments, and we call them staffs. A longbow is a bow, but a bow isn't a longbow. Because a bow could be a shortbow, and a shortbow isn't a longbow. So, a bow can't be the same as a longbow. People seem to be having a lot of difficulty with the idea. If anyone has dealt with programming and used inherited classes it should be a bit easier to grasp.
16 pages devoted to "If all planes are vehicles, then all vehicles are planes. Thus my car can fly". Awesome.
To FallingIcicle. Saying a quarterstaff is not the same as a staff isn't the same as saying a longbow isn't a bow. A longbow is a bow. It's the same as saying a bow isn't a longbow. A plane is a vehicle, but a vehicle isn't a plane. A plane has all the properties fo a vehicle, but not all vehicles can fly. A staff is a quarterstaff, but a quarterstaff isn't a staff. A Staff has all the properties of a quarterstaff, but not all quarterstaffs can be used as impliments. People are mammals, but mammals aren't people. People are a subset of mammals that have all the properties of mammals, plus their own unique attributes. Someone in this thread said that a quarterstaff cost the same, weighed the same, and could be used in combat the same as a staff, so why couldn't it be used as an impliment? Well, mammals have fur, are warm blooded, and give birth to live young so why can't they speak? Because they're mammals, not humans. A specific subset of mammals can speak, and we call them humans. A specific subset of quarterstaffs can be used as impliments, and we call them staffs. A longbow is a bow, but a bow isn't a longbow. Because a bow could be a shortbow, and a shortbow isn't a longbow. So, a bow can't be the same as a longbow. People seem to be having a lot of difficulty with the idea. If anyone has dealt with programming and used inherited classes it should be a bit easier to grasp.
I see it the other way around. Quarterstaff is a subset of staff.
You know... since it is in the staff group and all. That is usually how groupings work, a part of the group belongs to the group as a whole.
A Quarterstaff is a Staff like a Short Sword is a Light Blade... because they are a part of a BIGGER group.
Not all Staffs are quarterstaffs (otherwise small races wouldn't be able to use staff implements) just like not all Light Blades are Short Swords.
Good point, not all Staffs are Quarterstaffs, as your point about small creatures shows. It also seems that not all Quarterstaffs are Staffs however, going by previous points in this thread where the connection doesn't work.
It's certainly messier than I gave it credit for, and I wont argue my interpretation as the correct one. My initial reading of the rule was that staffs were special quarterstaffs which could be used as impliments. A better understanding seems to be that staffs are special impliments that can be used as quarterstaffs. It seems like they've complicated the issue tremendously by using such similar words, and deliberately or accidentally omitting the "quarter" from some uses of the word.
I can't see this being resolved one way or the other, given how ambiguous the rules are. For my part, it seems like the two must be seperate entities entirely, with neither belonging to either group but having a crossover point. Staff impliments in one section used with impliment powers, Quarterstaff weapons in another section used with weapon powers. But it looks like it can be interpreted other ways. Perhaps it was WotC intention to let spells be cast through magic weapons by classes which could use staff impliments. Perhaps they never thought about it and it's a loophole. Who knows?
So pretty much the argument continues with one side saying a staff implement is anything with the word staff in its name.. and the other group says it isnt and points to multiple instances of the rules treating the staff implement and the staff weapon group as seperate items..
BOTH ARE THE SAME. But u cant use the property of a weapon enchatment if u use it like a implement , only it , EASY !
FROM PHB2 PAG 207:
If you can wield a staff as an implement, you can add its enhancement bonus to the attack rolls and the damage rolls of implement powers you use through the staff, and you can use its properties and powers. Otherwise, you treat a staff as a magic quarterstaff and CANNOT use its PROPERTIES or powers.
too easy ... omfg ... is the SAME u can get a quarterstaff and use it like a implement or a weapon u can choose!
When you use a melee weapon power through a staff, the staff functions as a magic quarterstaff, and you add the staff ’s enhancement bonus to the power’s attack rolls and damage rolls. You add the weapon’s proficiency bonus to the attack rolls if you’re proficient with quarterstaffs. If you score a critical hit with the staff when using it as a weapon, you use the staff ’s critical hit effect.
So ... to use a cunning weapon u need to get a weapon as a implement to use it property without the especial rules that we saw above.
too easy ... omfg ... is the SAME u can get a quarterstaff and use it like a implement or a weapon u can choose!
this text doesn't say that. I (and other people) claim that staff-implement is not the same as staff-group; so when I read the text (added bolded stuff) [indent]If you can wield a staff (implement) as an implement*, you can add its enhancement bonus to the attack rolls and the damage rolls of implement powers you use through the staff, and you can use its properties and powers. Otherwise, you treat a staff as a magic quarterstaff and CANNOT use its PROPERTIES or powers.
*: you can also use a staff implement as a weapon, ref PHB1[/indent] heck, this text proves that staffs-implements are not the same as staffs: (again, added bolded stuff) [indent]Otherwise (a.k.a. if you use a staff as a weapon), you treat a staff as a magic quarterstaff and CANNOT use its PROPERTIES or powers. [/indent] Fighters use staffs as weapon, not implements. reading the text, it clearly says that fighters can't use the properties or powers of staffs.
In my train of thoughts this is quite logical: I think we're talking here about staff-implements, and off course fighters can't use the power of a Staff of the Sunburst ... (just like the can't use powers of orbs or wands). this text isn't about weapons, so quarterstaffs don't fall under this rule.
HOWEVER, if you say that staffs are staffs, none can use the properties or powers of quarterstaffs when they use it as a weapon...
BeFrost wrote:
When you use a melee weapon power through a staff, ... So ... to use a cunning weapon you need to get a weapon as a implement to use it property without the especial rules that we saw above.
IIRC 'cunning' is a not a mellee weapon power. Cleave, Reaping strike, etc. however are.
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Jesus GoD dammed .... my english sucks ... by the way i want to say that u cant use a cunning in a staff , but u can grab a feat to use a sword like implement and use cunning enchantement on it.
No, no! You can only use a staff as a staff if it's a staff, not if it's a staff! A staff, on the other hand, can only be used as such, and not as a staff. The words staff and staff are mutually exclusive - to use one as a staff it must be a staff and not a staff.
Good grief, what's difficult about this??
More seriously: there are folk that are actually arguing that there are two totally separate things that are both called "staff" in the rules. How they tell this I have no idea - maybe they see spellings with two different ASCII codes for one of the 'f's or something - I've given up caring.
For what it's worth the rule I use is as follows: any character using a weapon to make a 'Weapon' attack and any character using an item they are able to use as an implement making an 'Implement' attack can use the Enhancement and Critical effects of the item used. Properties and Powers are variously usable on Weapon and Implement attacks - sometimes obviously so, sometimes not. I adjudicate Properties and Powers individually, but if a description says "strikes with this weapon" or something similar it only works for 'Weapon' attacks and if it says something like "spells cast through this..." then it only works for 'Implement' attacks, etc., etc.
More seriously: there are folk that are actually arguing that there are two totally separate things that are both called "staff" in the rules. How they tell this I have no idea - maybe they see spellings with two different ASCII codes for one of the 'f's or something - I've given up caring.
Deductive reasoning. premisses (a.k.a. things I assume are right)[list=a]
fighters can use the properties of quarterstaffs
fighters can't use quarterstaffs as implements PHB page 240 -241, and PHB2 page 206 say (quoting PHB2 p 206) [indent]If you can wield a staff as an implement, you can add its enhancement bonus to the attack rolls and the damage rolls of implement powers you use through the staff, and you can use its properties and powers. Otherwise, you treat a staff as a magic quarterstaff and cannot use its properties or powers.[/indent]
since fighters can't use quarterstaffs as implements (premise B), they treat can not use their proterties or powers ... which contradicts that premise A
so here staffs don't include quarterstaffs
quod erat demonstrandum
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