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4 years ago ::
Jun 10, 2009 - 10:37PM
#461
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Date Joined:
Jan 24, 2009
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But when it -is- used as a ranged basic attack - because something granted you a ranged basic attack - it seems like you would have to use your dexterity. When you're just using the power as normal, you would use your charisma. (I agree that the imbued dagger explanation makes sense, but that seems to go pretty far outside the intended purpose of the light thrown property. It's even weirder with a pact hammer (heavy thrown property) and eldritch blast, which would make eldritch blast, when used as a granted ranged basic, use the player's strength score.)
This is false.
There are many powers that count as ranged basic attacks (and melee basic attacks as well).
There are only one of each power called Melee/Ranged Basic Attack.
The heavy/light thrown property only effect the power Ranged Basic Attack (as that power has a special line to alter dex to str for heavy thrown weapons).
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4 years ago ::
Jun 15, 2009 - 12:51PM
#462
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Date Joined:
Nov 14, 2008
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This is false.
There are many powers that count as ranged basic attacks (and melee basic attacks as well).
There are only one of each power called Melee/Ranged Basic Attack.
The heavy/light thrown property only effect the power Ranged Basic Attack (as that power has a special line to alter dex to str for heavy thrown weapons).
The special lines on that power cannot be taken as limitations. Otherwise, only wizards and warlocks would have powers that count as a ranged basic attack (according to the second Special line in the description). Obviously, this is not the case.
Thus the Special lines are for clarification purposes, not meant to exclude other cases. In other words, not being mentioned here doesn't make it untrue.
If your position is that the official rules don't matter, or that house rules can fix everything, please don't bother posting in forums about the official rules. To do so is a waste of everyone's time.
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4 years ago ::
Jun 16, 2009 - 9:02AM
#463
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Date Joined:
Nov 14, 2008
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But when it -is- used as a ranged basic attack - because something granted you a ranged basic attack - it seems like you would have to use your dexterity. When you're just using the power as normal, you would use your charisma. (I agree that the imbued dagger explanation makes sense, but that seems to go pretty far outside the intended purpose of the light thrown property. It's even weirder with a pact hammer (heavy thrown property) and eldritch blast, which would make eldritch blast, when used as a granted ranged basic, use the player's strength score.)
And yes, I suppose that is an unfortunate side effect. I guess you might just want to use your hand in that case! (TWSS)
If your position is that the official rules don't matter, or that house rules can fix everything, please don't bother posting in forums about the official rules. To do so is a waste of everyone's time.
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4 years ago ::
Jun 16, 2009 - 12:37PM
#464
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Date Joined:
Jan 24, 2009
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The special lines on that power cannot be taken as limitations. Otherwise, only wizards and warlocks would have powers that count as a ranged basic attack (according to the second Special line in the description). Obviously, this is not the case.
Thus the Special lines are for clarification purposes, not meant to exclude other cases. In other words, not being mentioned here doesn't make it untrue.
What?
No. Special lines in powers are for that specific power.
PH2 219:
Special: Any unusual information about the use
of a power appears in this entry. For example, some
powers can be used as basic attacks, which is noted in
a “Special” entry.
The power Ranged Basic Attack has two special lines. The first dictate the use of Str instead of Dex for a weapon with the heavy thrown property. The second mentions that some classes have powers that count as ranged basic attacks.
If you are granted a ranged basic attack and you use Eldritch Blast, then the power functions normally (con or cha vs ref). Even if you wanted to convolute the rules and use the heavy thrown property, there is no Dex mod to replace.
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4 years ago ::
Jun 17, 2009 - 5:23PM
#465
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Date Joined:
Jun 28, 2006
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Hello. No, a quarterstaff is not the same thing as a staff, so it can not be used as an implement. [/i]
Isn't that like saying that a longbow isn't a bow?
A quarterstaff is a member of the staff weapon group. The wizard class description says they can use staffs as implements. ANY staff. ANY member of that weapon group functions as an implement for them. I don't understand why people have such a hard time with this.
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4 years ago ::
Jun 17, 2009 - 10:01PM
#466
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Isn't that like saying that a longbow isn't a bow?
A quarterstaff is a member of the staff weapon group. The wizard class description says they can use staffs as implements. ANY staff. ANY member of that weapon group functions as an implement for them. I don't understand why people have such a hard time with this.
(bolding mine)
correct me if I'm wrong, but the PHB RAW don't say that the wizard can use ANY staff as implement right? only 'staff'.
now, my hole argument is that a staff isn't the same as a staff.
(language isn't math; a single word can have multiple meanings)
If you argument is that a staff is a staff, then the rule on page 240-241 would apply to quarterstaffs, which for example forbids fighters to use the daily power of a resouding quarterstaff (since fighters can't wield staffs as implements, the can't use that power ....)
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4 years ago ::
Jun 18, 2009 - 4:54AM
#467
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Date Joined:
Jun 28, 2006
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(bolding mine)
correct me if I'm wrong, but the PHB RAW don't say that the wizard can use ANY staff as implement right? only 'staff'.
now, my hole argument is that a staff isn't the same as a staff.
(language isn't math; a single word can have multiple meanings)
If you argument is that a staff is a staff, then the rule on page 240-241 would apply to quarterstaffs, which for example forbids fighters to use the daily power of a resouding quarterstaff (since fighters can't wield staffs as implements, the can't use that power ....)
No offense, but this is really stretching things beyond the limits of sanity. Wizards, according to their rules, can use staffs as implements. The "staff" is a weapon category that includes quarterstaffs. Now you're trying to suggest that when WotC said that wizards can use staffs as implements, they meant something other than the weapon group. Why do you believe this? What could lead you to this conclusion? You're trying to tell me that a staff implement is something other than a staff weapon, even though it functions as a quarterstaff in melee. Plenty of other classes now use weapons as implements, and there's no saying that the daggers or swords or whatever those classes can use as implements aren't actually daggers or swords, they're some kind of ridiculous magical item that looks like a dagger, can even be used as a dagger in melee, but isn't actually a dagger? Why would you apply such "logic" to staffs and wizards but not daggers and sorcerers?
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4 years ago ::
Jun 18, 2009 - 5:22AM
#468
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What could lead you to this conclusion?
page 240 -241.
it says that if you can't use a staff as implement, you can't use its powers.
I simply do not believe that WotC intended that fighter, rogues, ... could not use the powers of a quarterstaff. Do you?
You're trying to tell me that a staff implement is something other than a staff weapon, even though it functions as a quarterstaff in melee.
yes: both are sticks. but a staff implement has arcane spell cast on it IIRC so that it can be used as a implement (ref p 240)
Plenty of other classes now use weapons as implements, and there's no saying that the daggers or swords or whatever those classes can use as implements aren't actually daggers or swords,
no. as any class that uses weapons as implement has the knee-jirking reaction "OMG you can't use the properties if you use this weapon as a implement".
the text of the sorcerer in PHB2 is a nice example of that:
- sorcerer can use dagger
- sorcerer can use quarterstaffs
- remember: if you use a dagger as a implement, you can't use special properties
why specify dagger and not staff?
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4 years ago ::
Jun 18, 2009 - 10:10AM
#469
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Date Joined:
Apr 22, 2001
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No offense, but this is really stretching things beyond the limits of sanity. Wizards, according to their rules, can use staffs as implements. The "staff" is a weapon category that includes quarterstaffs. Now you're trying to suggest that when WotC said that wizards can use staffs as implements, they meant something other than the weapon group. Why do you believe this? What could lead you to this conclusion? You're trying to tell me that a staff implement is something other than a staff weapon, even though it functions as a quarterstaff in melee. Plenty of other classes now use weapons as implements, and there's no saying that the daggers or swords or whatever those classes can use as implements aren't actually daggers or swords, they're some kind of ridiculous magical item that looks like a dagger, can even be used as a dagger in melee, but isn't actually a dagger? Why would you apply such "logic" to staffs and wizards but not daggers and sorcerers?
Because there's a category of implements called "staffs." If they hadn't wanted implement staffs to be seperate from the weapon category staff, they wouldn't have a seperate section for implement staffs; they'd just make staff only weapon enchantments (like they did for sorcerers and daggers). It's not the only term that can mean two different things in the game.
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4 years ago ::
Jun 18, 2009 - 3:40PM
#470
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the text of the sorcerer in PHB2 is a nice example of that:
- sorcerer can use dagger
- sorcerer can use quarterstaffs
- remember: if you use a dagger as a implement, you can't use special properties
why specify dagger and not staff?
If a Sorcerer uses a dagger as an Implement, he CAN use the dagger's Properties, he just can't use the dagger's Powers.
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