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4 years ago ::
May 21, 2009 - 6:00PM
#441
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Date Joined:
Jul 19, 2004
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(1) please be more polite.
Sorry, I got so dumbfounded I just had to say it.
(2) no, because I agree with 'm. (making my view equally messed up)
this is my train of thought - staffs are not staff: page 240-241 talk about staffs, but those pages are clearly not intended for the weapon group staffs.
I am talking about his view of how magic items work with powers, he is ignoring examples from the book and what the rules say about how things work.
He pretty much said in a previous post that the enchantment type is refering to the keywords of a power, not the item the enchanment goes on. So when it says Weapon: Any, he is saying the 'weapon' isnt talking about the item called a 'weapon' but the keyword from powers named 'weapon'
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4 years ago ::
May 22, 2009 - 5:10AM
#442
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Date Joined:
Sep 18, 2007
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Regardless, they are still not one of those "some classes."
Hu? There's a full stop in between. It doesn't say 'if those classes use an implement power through it...' It says 'If you are able to wield a magic weapon as an implement and use an implement power through it...' 'You', not 'one of those classes'.
If the 'you' referenced to 'one of those classes', there'd be no need for the 'if'. It'd just say: 'Some classes are able to wield weapons as implements. When they use an implement power through a magic weapon...'
Besides Wizard class is able to wield a blade as an implement, with the appropriate feat.
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4 years ago ::
May 22, 2009 - 6:35AM
#443
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Date Joined:
Jan 24, 2009
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Hu? There's a full stop in between. It doesn't say 'if those classes use an implement power through it...' It says 'If you are able to wield a magic weapon as an implement and use an implement power through it...' 'You', not 'one of those classes'.
If the 'you' referenced to 'one of those classes', there'd be no need for the 'if'. It'd just say: 'Some classes are able to wield weapons as implements. When they use an implement power through a magic weapon...'
Besides Wizard class is able to wield a blade as an implement, with the appropriate feat.
I know there is a break. I was pointing out the absurdity of clinging to the first sentence (which happens to be vague) as how the rules work.
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4 years ago ::
May 22, 2009 - 7:10AM
#444
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Date Joined:
Aug 19, 2007
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Sorry, I got so dumbfounded I just had to say it.
I am talking about his view of how magic items work with powers, he is ignoring examples from the book and what the rules say about how things work.
He pretty much said in a previous post that the enchantment type is refering to the keywords of a power, not the item the enchanment goes on. So when it says Weapon: Any, he is saying the 'weapon' isnt talking about the item called a 'weapon' but the keyword from powers named 'weapon'
A weapon enchantment must go on a weapon, even if it is an improvised weapon. Why would anyone would want a vicious chair +2, but it could be done. Weapon enchantments only enhance attacks used through weapon powers, unless specific rules override this general rule. I.e. a swordmage can use an enchanted light blade or heavy blade with swordmage implement powers.
An implement enchantment only can go on the type of implement it is listed under. You could not put a rod enchantment on a staff. Implement enchantments enhance powers with the implement keyword as long as it is an implement your class is proficient with.
A frost quarterstaff +2 would not enhance a wizard's implement power. A staff of winter +2 would enhance an implement power for those classes that can use a staff as an implement and also enhance anybody's weapon attacks when wielded as a quarterstaff.
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4 years ago ::
May 22, 2009 - 7:15AM
#445
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Date Joined:
Jan 24, 2009
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Weapon enchantments only enhance attacks used through weapon powers, unless specific rules override this general rule.
There is no such rule. Enhancement bonuses are not separated by what has them.
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4 years ago ::
May 22, 2009 - 7:20AM
#446
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Date Joined:
Jul 19, 2004
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A weapon enchantment must go on a weapon, even if it is an improvised weapon. Why would anyone would want a vicious chair +2, but it could be done. Weapon enchantments only enhance attacks used through weapon powers, unless specific rules override this general rule. I.e. a swordmage can use an enchanted light blade or heavy blade with swordmage implement powers.
I highly doubt that enchantments can go on improvised weapons even, since they are not in fact weapons but something being used as a weapon.
Regardless of the source of the enchant, any enhancement bonus applies when applicable. If a weapon is being used for an implement attack the enhancement bonus applies, and if an implement is being used for a weapon attack the enhancement bonus applies. The rules never say there is a limit to when the enhancement bonus applies, the rules do on the otherhand limit when such attacks can be used.
You just keep quoting the power keywords as if it has something to do with magic items. The rules for enhancement bonuses are clear that they apply when the item is used to make an attack, it does not limit the type of attack. The power keywords limit the item that can be used for the attack, they have nothing to do with the enchantments on said item.
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4 years ago ::
May 22, 2009 - 7:33AM
#447
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Date Joined:
Aug 19, 2007
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I know there is a break. I was pointing out the absurdity of clinging to the first sentence (which happens to be vague) as how the rules work.
Some classes can use certain magic weapons as implements.
Swordmages, sorcerers, and monks have class features which allow them to use weapons as implements. Those three are the some classes that can use certain weapons; light blades or heavy blade for swordmages, daggers for sorcerers, monk weapons for monks.
If you are able to wield a magic weapon as an implement and use an implement power through it...
If you are a swordmage, sorcerer, or monk this is how magic weapons work as an implement.
There is also the Arcane Implement Proficiency feat which would allow you to use a light blade, heavy blade or dagger as an implement. WotST and Eladrin Sword Wizardry also allows certain weapons to be used as implements.
The only class that can use a weapon enchanted staff as an implement is the monk.
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4 years ago ::
May 22, 2009 - 7:40AM
#448
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I have been reading through some of this thread and can understand the reasoning behind why quarterstaves cannot be used as implements under the argument that they were not fashioned with the proper magical conduits. However, this argument falls apart when they introduced mundane objects as arcane implements (daggers, heavy blades, and light blades). Yes, maybe sorcs and swordmages have formed a special bond that allows only them to do this, but then they introduced the Arcane Implement Proficiency feat which makes that argument fall apart.
So, I get why A=B |= B=A, but I have never heard a good reason (other than there are no specific rules for it) to say why a wizard can't learn to use a quarterstaff as an implement either through a feat or trading one of his other implements away. I mean, if sorcs and swordmages can learn to use mundane objects as implements, and wizards can learn to use those too, why can't they learn to use other mundane objects, like axes, hammers, voodoo dolls, or god forbid, quarterstaves!
I thought 4e was intended to make rules more generic instead of having ones for every little situation, but it seems here that existing classes will, mysteriously and for no sensible reason, get to use new implements only as new classes become available that can use them (though Arcane Implement Prof), but until then its hands off for no good reason. I'm just trying to wrap my head around this concept. Any have a plausible theory here?
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4 years ago ::
May 22, 2009 - 8:05AM
#449
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I'm just trying to wrap my head around this concept. Any have a plausible theory here?
Yep... almost all of the difficult hoop jumping that you raise can be avoided if quarterstaves are recognized as implements for anyclass which can use staves as implements.
I brought up Ockham's Razor a few pages ago: given two equally plausible theories, the one to be prefered is almost alwats the simplest of the two.
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4 years ago ::
May 22, 2009 - 10:10AM
#450
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A weapon enchantment must go on a weapon, even if it is an improvised weapon.
A fair number of implements can be improvised weapons. A staff implement is also a staff weapon. It's a member of the staff weapon group, can be used with weapon powers, and has a full complement of weapon stats.
If a enchanting an improvised weapon is fine, enchanting an item that's meant to be used as a weapon should work just as well.
I highly doubt that enchantments can go on improvised weapons even, since they are not in fact weapons but something being used as a weapon.
Eh, I could see the argument going either way since the game isn't really that strict on defining what a weapon is. They're enough of weapon to work with weapon powers, though that keyword does admittedly spell out you can use improvised weapons.
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