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4 years ago ::
May 08, 2009 - 11:29AM
#21
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Date Joined:
Aug 19, 2007
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So an impliment staff can be used as a weapon. While a weapon staff can not be used as an impiment. Then I am just going to enchant my impiment staff with viciousness.
I see what WOC was initially trying to do separating the two, but with how the game has developed I think it is pointless.
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4 years ago ::
May 08, 2009 - 11:37AM
#22
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So an impliment staff can be used as a weapon. While a weapon staff can not be used as an impiment. Then I am just going to enchant my impiment staff with viciousness.
I see what WOC was initially trying to do separating the two, but with how the game has developed I think it is pointless.
except weapon enhancements only work with weapon keyword powers
Also i don't see the problem people are having with this
Square=staff
Rectangle=quaterstaffs
all squares are rectangles but not all rectangles are squares
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4 years ago ::
May 08, 2009 - 11:56AM
#23
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Neither do I, Wolfbrother, but then, Ive always been a bit of an elitist.
It surely is not a difficult concept to grasp intellectually.
Before arcane power was released, it was an understandable feat of wishful thinkin on the part of people who wanted to take a paragon path (ANY paragon path) other than Wizard of the Spiral Tower). Now that the gaming gods haff given us Arcane Implement Proficiency I really would have expected people to calm down, man up, and pay the damn feat for their uber-ness. Alas, no such luck.
Ahh well.
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4 years ago ::
May 08, 2009 - 11:56AM
#24
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Date Joined:
May 15, 2008
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WotC needs to learn to read their own rule books.
Quarterstaffs are Staffs, full stop.
They are in the Staff weapon group, thus they are Staffs.
Wizards get Staffs as implements.
They can use anything within the Staff weapon group as an implement as it is written.
If you put a weapon or weapon group in the implement line then it can be used as an implement.
If WotC doesn't want it to work they way they need to officially errata the rules rather than just saying nuh-uh it doesn't work that way when it in fact does as written.
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4 years ago ::
May 08, 2009 - 11:58AM
#25
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Implements and weapons are different things, grinning Oni, unless you are specifcally allowed to use a certain type of weapon as an implement. I doubt it ever occured to them that it would be interpreted otherwise - that anyone would consider the weapon group and the implement type equivalent.
That said, I wouldn't be too terribly surprised if there were an official rules clarification of some sort on the issue at some point in the not-too-distant future.
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4 years ago ::
May 08, 2009 - 12:01PM
#26
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Date Joined:
May 15, 2008
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Staffs is a weapon group.
Staffs is what is listed under usable implements.
If they don't want it to be so they need to change either the name of the weapon group or the implement.
When you list a weapon or weapon group under implements then they can be used as implements.
So no, weapons and implements are not always different things, see the sorcerers dagger for instance.
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4 years ago ::
May 08, 2009 - 12:05PM
#27
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Date Joined:
Dec 19, 2003
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read the same block. a staff (implement) is imbued with magic so that it can be used as implement.
And I would suggest that you keep reading the same block as it continues on the next page and says this:
'If your class can’t normally use staffs as implements, or if you’re not using an implement power, a staff is simply a magic quarterstaff.
For example, a cleric could pick up and use a +3 staff of fiery might as a melee weapon: He would add 3 to his melee attack rolls and damage rolls, and if he scored a critical hit with the staff, he would add 3d10 fire damage. However, he couldn’t use the staff ’s power in conjunction with a cleric power that had the fire keyword, because cleric powers can’t be cast through staffs.'
But wizard powers can. Again, what's the distinction?
And here's the Arcane Implement write up under Equipment in chapter 7:
'Arcane Implement: Wizards use orbs, staffs, or wands as focus items for their spells, while warlocks use rods or wands. Using a nonmagical implement confers no benefit. You can purchase a magic implement to gain an enhancement bonus to attack rolls and damage rolls with your arcane powers. A staff implement can also function as a quarterstaff.'
So the mundane version that you purchase for 5 gp and is really just to allow you to use your Arcane Implement Mastery feature is 'nonmagical'. So what is to keep you from using a normal quarterstaff to do the same thing?! And as well, since you can use the property from a magic weapon when you use it as an implement, what is preventing me from using a Cunning Staff to apply a penalty to saving throws? Only CS as far as I can see. I think my DM is smarter than this (hell, my two year olds are smarter than this).
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4 years ago ::
May 08, 2009 - 12:11PM
#28
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Date Joined:
Aug 20, 2007
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Through a pact blade, which isn't a regular knife, even if it uses the same stats in combat. Much the same way as Wizards cast through staffs, which aren't actually quarterstaffs, even if they share the mechanical effects in combat.
Sorcerers seem to be the exception to the rule, but then again, their approach to magic is also different.
Note: I have a problem with mundane objects being used to channel magic if it's something that's applied fairly (or at least consistently). Why should a Warlock be able to use a regular knife to use as an implement, but can't pick up a scepter and use it as a rod implement?
You may not have seen arcane power yet, but there is a feat that allows any arcane class to be trained in another arcane classes implement and use that implement for all their powers. It's called arcane implement training and would allow a warlock to use a dagger (any dagger) as an implement because dagger is a sorcerer implement. You can also use light blades or heavy blades (swordmage implements).
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4 years ago ::
May 08, 2009 - 12:16PM
#29
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Well, look, you're entiteld to your opinion, and if you can con your DM into agreeing with your opinion, then god bless your scheister's heart, but as far as wizards is concerned thats simply not how it works. I build my characters to be RPGA legal - taking advantage of credulous game-masters always feels liek cheating to me.
As the fellow above said, all staffs are quarterstaffs. All quarterstaffs are not staffs. it does not seem like complicated or fundamentally flawed idea to me.
As noted above, the IC expliantionf or this is that implement staffs are specially perpared/enchanted to serve as magical implements. Quarterstaff weapons are not. Staff implements are also heavy pieces of wood like quarterstaffs, so they can be used as a weapon. Just like a holy avenger sword can be used as a kitchen knife, if you really want. Once again, it does not seem like a complicated issue.
I know that Quarterstaffs belong to the "Staff Weapon group" and that this is confusing with the staff implement type, but it seems clear that it is an unintentional convergeance. You can call it bad editing, but that has no bearing on the rules issues.
Anyhoo, thats the last Ill say on teh subject.
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4 years ago ::
May 08, 2009 - 12:34PM
#30
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Date Joined:
Apr 10, 2008
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The biggest problem has been sloppy wording.
Wizards can use what?
Staff Implements?
No. They use staff, wand, orb.
Do you take Weapon Focus: Quarterstaff? No. Do you take Weapon Focus: Polearm (which a staff maybe ought to be grouped under)? No. Its WF: STAFF.
If they spelled out Staff Implement, and referred to Quarterstaff for every weaponized one this would make more sense.
It would ALSO help if weapon focus: staff didn't pump up Staff Implements, which are not quarterstaves (but can be used like them)
So from a purely logical point of view, we understand the Square/Rectangle thing.
But, they refer to just about everything as a TRAPEZOID so it gets totally muddied.
Then, we have daggers that are weapons usable as implements, which violates their own rules about weaponized implements unable to use the Item Powers.
THIS is the problem.
My Sorc Guide Link:
http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19649162/Joes_Sorcerer_Guide_AP_update_51509
My Genesi Wizard Blaster Link:
http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/25082729/Miniguide_to_Genesi_LightningThunder_Blaster_Wizard_%2806-2010%29
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