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Balesir wrote:

CS actually is official - not always right, sadly, but official nonetheless. And, to give them credit on the 'not always right' bit, they do seem to be improving.

Yes, I thought they were improving, too, but things like this don't help.

And no, I don't see any reference that supports CS being official. Certainly in LFR they're not (because the CCG mentions what the "official sources" are, and that list doesn't include CustServ), and in home campaigns everything depends on the DM anyway.

If you mean the February R&D Q&A session article quoted above in this thread, then no, that's not what it says.

Please elaborate?

I can't find where, right now, but I could swear I read something about area effects - how cover works and so on.

Well, that you can't find it says a lot, doesn't it?

Given that even ledges, stairways and balconies (and pits!) need consideration of 3D effects I really don't get this problem at all.

Unfortunately, they don't. Stairways are treated as Yet Another patch of difficult terrain, and ledges are treated as squares that require a climbing check to pass.

Suppose there is a combat going on at the bottom of a 50 foot square pit - is the 'floor level' the floor of the pit or the floor around the pit?

The floor level is the battle mat. So both floors are at "floor level", and anything else appears to be a deliberate misinterpretation to try to make the other side look silly. Most DMs will draw ledges, pits, and so forth on the mat with no problems; all of that is floor level. The game is intended to be played on the plane, and (most of) the rules were written for that.

Shimeran wrote:

Flaming sphere is a "Ranged 10" spell. Neither the general text on conjurations nor the specific text on flaming sphere add any limits.

Neither the general text on conjurations nor the specific text on FS specify it can be created at an altitude. In 4E, the default is that unless a rule specifically states that you can do something, you can't.

If you read this as not being able to go above ground level then you've made flying targets immune to ranged attacks.

Wrong. Ranged attacks don't target squares, they target enemies.

I figure they can probably drop down to half their normal height while prone. As such, I'd probably let them crawl under the area if needed.

That's a good one, but now you're houseruling.

See, I'm claiming that the rules as written don't work for this situation. You claim that with houserules, you can make the situation work just fine. That means that (1) we're not actually disagreeing on anything, and (2) Oberoni would like a word with you.

On another tangent, I claim that the rules are inconsistent, and you respond that they aren't because you're ignoring the parts that you don't like. Guess what "inconsistent" means

A giant spider web floating in the air would be kind of strange,

It does, which is why earlier editions didn't allow it. This one explicitly does.

Sarlax wrote:

There's no such thing as the "battlemat" in the game

Yes there is, it's the surface you're playing on.

Have you perhaps played the first 3-D perspective computer games, like Wolfenstein and Doom? Wolfenstein had a flat map. Doom had a map that appeared to be 3-D, because there were stairs up and down, but in fact it wasn't: you could never "cross over" or "cross under" a path. 4E is like that.

Have you noticed how every reference to mats and maps in the handbook, and every printed map in modules or LFR adventures, is flat? Yeah, that's what people play on.

Both wizards start on opposite ends of the slope. Each casts Flaming Sphere in a square adjacent to the other at ground level. Hal's FS works just fine, because he's targeting below his position, but Lowel's fails, since he's targeting above his plane.

That's not how it works. You're making up something weird which isn't what anyone else is claiming, and using that to disprove a fictitious position. What happens is that both cast a FS on the battlemap, and both work. There is a line in the middle of the map that requires climbing checks to pass. Flaming spheres can't make climbing checks.

Here's a follow up idea: What bad thing actually occurs if conjurations can move vertically? Aside from some "It's now RAI" or "That's not what it says" response, how does the game break?

Ah, that's a better question. It breaks two things. First, you can now throw zones ten feet up in the air, which means they affect large creatures only. Essentially, the zone goes from "affect everyone" to "affect enemies only". And second, you can now use vertical movement (e.g. grasping hand) to drop people and deal additional falling damage.

What's the difference? Well, thunderwave deals 1d6+int damage, and pushes four. Under your interpretation, it now deals 1d6+2d10+int damage, and drops the enemy prone in addition to pushing him. The average damage more than doubles from 8 to 19 points, maximum or crit damage almost triples from 11 to 31.

This doesn't break the game; however, it does make certain powers much better than anything else on the same level.

Vaelan wrote:

Incorrect. As per page 285 of the PHB...

Yes, that's my point. By RAW you can't do that. I was responding to Sarlan's question of "what would become unbalanced if you could do that?"

Interestingly, Custserv points out that "Conjurations are not considered to fly, and cannot move vertically the same way the move horizontally", and also "You can move it across gaps and it could hover. However you cannot move it vertically through the air. A conjuration can also move across water."

This underlines my earlier statement that most of the game plays on a two-dimensional plane.

Kurald_Galain wrote:

Ah, that's a better question. It breaks two things. First, you can now throw zones ten feet up in the air, which means they affect large creatures only. Essentially, the zone goes from "affect everyone" to "affect enemies only". And second, you can now use vertical movement (e.g. grasping hand) to drop people and deal additional falling damage.

Vaelan's already addressed the error about push effects. Next, Bigby's Grasping Hands can't pick people up to then drop them. The only thing the Hand can do it deal 2d10+INT damage and grab - but it doesn't have the power use the "Move a Grabbed Target" action as described on PHB 290, so you cannot use it to drag people 10 squares into the air even if the hand can otherwise vertically.

So again - what bad thing happens if conjurations can be moved vertically?

Kurald_Galain]Have you noticed how every reference to mats and maps in the handbook, and every printed map in modules or LFR adventures, is flat? Yeah, that's what people play on.

Eh, how would you propose that publishers include maps that are not flat in books? The fact that maps are flat is irrelevant. The environments they depict are usually not flat - they depict varied terrain, including terrain that varies in height. Keep on the Shadowfell's final area is in fact a chamber that lies directly beneath another and has to be entered by vertical movement.

In any case, you're ignoring problems with the "no vertical" interpretation. To repeat:
1) How big does a pit or chasm have to be before a conjuration cannot cross?
2) If a conjuration cannot move vertically, how is a Flaming Sphere created at the bottom of even a slight slope able to move across it? If it moves, it has to be moving up. If the reply is "it can move up here because the "battlemat" is under it, that contradicts RAW, which indicates that conjurations do not require the support of a solid s wrote:

Corwynn wrote:

Kurald_Galain]Wrong. Ranged attacks don't target squares, they target enemies.

By this logic Cloud of Daggers cannot be used to attack a flying creature.

Area 1 square within 10 squares
Target: Each creature in square

I sure am glad I don't play at your table, with crazy house rules like these :P

It's also wrong. PHB 272 specifically says you can target squares instead of e wrote: