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4 years ago ::
Apr 28, 2009 - 4:36AM
#181
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Date Joined:
Jun 16, 2001
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I also note that Ball Lightning (from AP) explicitly points out that it can hover, whereas Flaming Sphere does not.
At the end of PHB 2, a lot of things are updated, Conjurations are among them. They explicitely write that conjurations can float in the air.
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4 years ago ::
Apr 28, 2009 - 5:05AM
#182
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Date Joined:
Aug 24, 2007
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They explicitely write that conjurations can float in the air.
As I said before, I think that "not requiring support" means that you can conjure stuff over a pit, or over a lake; it does not mean you can place things above the battlemap. There is nothing that indicates that a Pillar of Thunder or a Flaming Sphere can be conjured above an enemy, although both can apparently be conjured over a pit.
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4 years ago ::
Apr 28, 2009 - 5:09AM
#183
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Date Joined:
Jun 16, 2001
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Provided it's a multi-square (multi-cube, if we're picky) creature, sure I would. It's RAw and RAI as far as I can see. You can put a burst-2 effect behind a large creature so your allies in front of it aren't hit - why wouldn't you be able to do something similar by aiming above it?
4E handles 3D just fine; it has to, as the game worlds (all the ones I've come accross so far, at least) are 3 dimensional.
Ad a DM, I of course would then let the large creatures squeeze below the Storm Pillar and move away unharmed...
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4 years ago ::
Apr 28, 2009 - 5:28AM
#184
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Date Joined:
Aug 19, 2005
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If Customer Support (which is not an official rules source) contradicts Dragon Magazine (which is)... well, that does undermine my faith in customer support.
CS actually is official - not always right, sadly, but official nonetheless. And, to give them credit on the 'not always right' bit, they do seem to be improving.
I believe it was the March dragon magazine that had an article where the Developers explained that yes, you can Thunderwave enemies into Wall of Fire, and yes, this is intended to damage them.
If you mean the February R&D Q&A session article quoted above in this thread, then no, that's not what it says.
At least half of the books assume that the game takes place in a flat plane with nothing above it, and don't even think about the possibility; as I am fond to point out, if squares were intended to be 3D, they would have been called "cubes".
It works as cubes - a few issues but no real howlers. And rules (in the DMG) for flying and underwater 3D movement shows it hasn't been forgotten. I can't find where, right now, but I could swear I read something about area effects - how cover works and so on. Given that even ledges, stairways and balconies (and pits!) need consideration of 3D effects I really don't get this problem at all.
Me, I rule that "not requiring support" means that you can conjure stuff over a pit, or over a lake; it does not mean you can place things above the battelmap. I also note that Ball Lightning (from AP) explicitly points out that it can hover, whereas Flaming Sphere does not.
 This kind of "assigning an arbitrary 'zero' level" and "no, not that floor - that floor is at floor level!" stuff just compounds the problem IMO.
Suppose there is a combat going on at the bottom of a 50 foot square pit - is the 'floor level' the floor of the pit or the floor around the pit? Just how big does the pit need to be for the floor level to shift? What about a room with a 2 square wide ledge elevated 5 feet above the rest of the floor all around the edges of the room - is it impossible to cast onto the ledge? Nasty place to put Artillery monsters...
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Balesir
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4 years ago ::
Apr 28, 2009 - 5:29AM
#185
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Date Joined:
Aug 19, 2005
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Ad a DM, I of course would then let the large creatures squeeze below the Storm Pillar and move away unharmed...
Yes, absolutely. Just because the gap is not vertical doesn't mean you can't squeeze through it.
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Balesir
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4 years ago ::
Apr 28, 2009 - 8:39AM
#186
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As I said before, I think that "not requiring support" means that you can conjure stuff over a pit, or over a lake; it does not mean you can place things above the battlemap. There is nothing that indicates that a Pillar of Thunder or a Flaming Sphere can be conjured above an enemy, although both can apparently be conjured over a pit.
Flaming sphere is a "Ranged 10" spell. Neither the general text on conjurations nor the specific text on flaming sphere add any limits. In fact, the "does not need to be supported" line explicitly keeps you from adding the "must target a surface" requirement.
As such, the sphere can be conjured in any square that could be targetted by a ranged attack. If you read this as not being able to go above ground level then you've made flying targets immune to ranged attacks.
Yes, absolutely. Just because the gap is not vertical doesn't mean you can't squeeze through it.
Heck, I figure they can probably drop down to half their normal height while prone. As such, I'd probably let them crawl under the area if needed.
The funny thing is that in the web example the zone actually was attached to a surface. That surface just happened to be the ceiling and walls. A giant spider web floating in the air would be kind of strange, but it also has a certain coolness factor and a definite magical feel to it.
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4 years ago ::
Apr 28, 2009 - 8:43AM
#187
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Ad a DM, I of course would then let the large creatures squeeze below the Storm Pillar and move away unharmed...
I also agree with this. I have no problem aiming spells high, and no problem letting large creatures dodge them as they can any other spell. Even spells cast directly on such a creature do not auto-hit; they have to beat the target's defense score; a Reflex defense could mean ducking under.
Moving under an existing spell aimed high is just as viable so long as the creature body type supports it, a dragon would be able to crawl under, a borg cube would not  , but crawling speed would be less than walking or running speed so it would usually have to slow down and suffer any conditions for crouching while under the spell. This is why wizzies can be good controllers even with damage spells.
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4 years ago ::
Apr 28, 2009 - 12:04PM
#188
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Date Joined:
Jan 30, 2004
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As I said before, I think that "not requiring support" means that you can conjure stuff over a pit, or over a lake; it does not mean you can place things above the battlemap. There is nothing that indicates that a Pillar of Thunder or a Flaming Sphere can be conjured above an enemy, although both can apparently be conjured over a pit.
There's no such thing as the "battlemat" in the game., and this produces some nonsense results (absurdity number one being that everything is above the mat).
Consider a room 50 feet wide and 100 feet long. Halfway down the length of the chamber, the floor drops 10 feet. On half of the drop is abrupt, the other half is sloped. There are two wizards, Hal who is on the upper level, and Lowel, who is on the lower level.
Both wizards start on opposite ends of the slope. Each casts Flaming Sphere in a square adjacent to the other at ground level. Hal's FS works just fine, because he's targeting below his position, but Lowel's fails, since he's targeting above his plane.
The next day, the wizards move to the abrupt altitude shift. Hal's next sphere works because he's targeting a square below his position - or does it? Maybe it fails because it's not at the same altitude at all. In any case, Lowel's sphere fails because, even if he's 15 feet tall, he's casting upward from the plane on which he's standing.
Hal and Lowel take their fight somewhere else the next day. This time it's a room with two halves at the same height but which gradually split apart. On day one, there's a 5 foot gap between the two halves. Apparently, their spheres can cross the gap with no problem.
Day 2, the gap is 10 feet wide and 100 feet deep. Do the spheres cross?
Day 3, gap is 15 feet wide, 95 feet deep. How about now?
Etc. What differentiates pits, chasms, canyons, etc? Well - nothing at all. It's completely arbitrary and only confuses and complicates to create these distinctions.
Here's a follow up idea: What bad thing actually occurs if conjurations can move vertically? Aside from some "It's now RAI" or "That's not what it says" response, how does the game break?
Sarlax
Chicago, IL
---
Find local gamers via Google Maps @ http://nearbygamers.com/
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4 years ago ::
Apr 29, 2009 - 12:44AM
#189
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Date Joined:
Jun 16, 2001
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Hi there,
alongside with Arcane Power the Compendium was updated with the new powers from the Miniatures packages. Check it out: Search for "Powers" in the Compendium with "Miniatures" as Source. I heard we should not copy the rules here, so I'll just speak about them.
The Fighter and the Sorcerer got a really nice new at-will power. The Sorcerers Arcing Fire is especially nice, because it brings back the 3.5 lightning bolt mechanic: You affect a line of creatures. That makes for interesting new tactics.
The Bards new at-will is nice but not overwhelming, the Wizards new at-will leaves me underwhelmed. The Warlock finally got a melee at-will and the swordmage got nothing.
The wizard got a new daily utility level 10 (Repelling Shield) that looks like a slightly better shield, so not so impressive. Still, with this power, Shield, Wizards Escape and Staff Mastery, you can kick up your AC or even preventz the attack for four melee attacks if you should be melee inclined.
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4 years ago ::
Apr 29, 2009 - 12:56AM
#190
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Date Joined:
Nov 14, 2008
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the Wizards new at-will leaves me underwhelmed.
Isn't that the one that's burst 1, cold, does 5 fixed damage, only hits enemies, and has the effect (no need to hit) of -2 to attacks?
It strikes me as absolutely outstanding, personally. Before, Wizards needed a single-target spell, but now, you can go Scorching Burst/the new at-will, whatchamacallit. That it's Cold is just gravy.
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