Yes, it's me again, the resident controller hater. I've been spending a lot of time studying the Wizard on paper and in play to discover what it was that makes a controller a controller. I've been doing this so that I could create my own Martial Controller, an Archer class to replace the Ranger in my games (since my group would rather the Ranger be a Primal class).
But as the months have gone by, I've been finding that the Archer concept isn't quite big enough to be an entire class. It's not as big as "heavy armor warrior," "tricky warrior", or "commanding warrior". Back when the role/source system was first announced, I was one of the posters who was hoping the Ranger would be a controller since it was declared to be martial.
So, rather than create a whole new class, I believe it might be possible to patch the Ranger and turn it into a controller. Many of their powers are already in this vein; even twin-strike is almost a controller power (it can't hit as many targets as scorching burst, but it can hit targets that are far apart and amidst allies, so it's a trade off). The only thing that would need to be changed is their striker ability: Hunter's Quarry.
At it's core, Hunter's Quarry could become a controller ability. It is described as the Ranger taking study of the opponent and determining the best way to attack them. Instead, what if Hunter's Quarry made you more aware of the target's motivations, giving you a method of predicting its actions. In game, since you're predicting the actions, maybe that would give you some control of the actions, or at least a level of prescience that you could use to warn your allies.
Currently, I have two ideas floating around to replace the bonus damage:[list=1]
Either allow the ranger to, as an immediate interrupt, impose a penalty associated with their Wisdom modifier on the Quarry's actions (you're warning your allies of what's to come; this is control because it's limiting the effectiveness of the quarry's attacks),
Or allow the ranger to, as an immediate interrupt, slide an ally a number of squares associated with their Wisdom modifier when the Quarry moves adjacent to the target (you know who the quarry is going to attack, so you warn your ally away).
The ability doesn't need to be an at-will ability; it could be 2/encounter like the leader heals. I'd prefer if it were a small ability and thus could be at-will. I think there's promise here, but I need other minds to shape it.
Hunter's Quarry: Once per turn as a minor action, you can designate the enemy nearest to you as your quarry. If your quarry performs an action that provokes an attack of opportunity, you can make a basic attack as an immediate interrupt against that enemy. If your attack hits, your quarry takes a -2 penalty on their next attack roll this round. The hunter's quarry effect remains active until the end of the encounter, until the quarry is defeated, or until you designate a different target as your quarry. You can designate one enemy as your quarry at a time.
Now, compared to Quarry, this is going to be more damage: at first level it's 1d10+3 vs. 1d6; at 21st level it's 2d10+11 or more vs. 3d6 (or d8). But it is circumstantial, and the enemy can easily avoid it. It also costs more actions for the Ranger, and will thus limit their use of other Immediate action powers.
Again, this is all still in the design process. I think it is possible, but I need input.
On thing to note, is that any martial controller is going to be a striker secondary, because it's a martial class. This, to my mind, makes powers along the lins of "if an enemy does X, I shoot him" perfectly reasonable control powers.
That is true, the Martial Power source is always a damage dealer. Fighters discourage foes from attacking their allies by threatening them. My only worry is that my attack of opportunity idea is a little close to being a ranged defender; I think that's something unavoidable, though.
Another idea would be to make it so a Ranger's Quarry couldn't gain combat advantage over their enemies. The Ranger is watching them too closely, and if the Ranger can still sense them, they can warn their allies. I'm not sure if that's more of a utility, though; it's not useful all the time.
There would also be suppressing fire- a Wall of arrows, that damages anything stupid enough to walk into it...
I'm talking powers at this point, not quarry.
Oh yeah, I've got a pretty good handle on the powers. I'm going to keep most of them, with a few tweeks. There will be a number of encounter powers (probably at 1st, 13th, and 27th level) that are area bursts which create a 1 round zone that will deal damage to things which make an attack in the zone (I don't want it to be auto damage since that will pop minions, and I'd like to have it control by encouraging the enemies to defend themselves by not attacking, or at least run out of the area).
Also, I'm going to change the TWFing build into a polearm build (using Str/Wis, which are the requirements for polearm feats), giving it the reach to be a melee controller.
That is true, the Martial Power source is always a damage dealer. Fighters discourage foes from attacking their allies by threatening them. My only worry is that my attack of opportunity idea is a little close to being a ranged defender; I think that's something unavoidable, though.
I'd be more worried it'd turn into some kind of leader. Something more like the Paladin, actually. Think.. your powers are protective, but specific to aggressive actions the enemy initiates... but you punish by allowing your ally to move around. Or damage at range.
Choices between bad things, but that don't really pick one thing to 'stop', are . . . striker in a way (choices between "six damage dice here" and "six damage dice there", lol). The defender gets in there with more than damage, he stops attacks and approaches in their tracks. The controller (see my post to the "What is a controller v2" thread, I'm reallyhoping for comments), you're sort of imitating him but not going far enough with what he does - he says there's something the opponent isn't allowed to do. He says you have to "go around" this. Your build, as conceived right now, can only say "oh, well you take damage." If they want to, they'll eat that damage. Then kill Fred the Cleric. You're making penalties, but the penalties, let me get graphical here, only make a kind of mushy wall, like slush, rather than a true veil, of entangling rope. It's something that has no force behind it, it doesn't change what the enemy party could honestly attempt.
So yeah, you are only becoming a ranged defender. (Now that in itself would be cool - as is, I'm wondering if such a thing could be balanced and also make sense in the fluff).
To make this work (and I think this could work!) please check my post the other thread. See if it applies here (it's your idea, so you have to fill it in; we can co-ordinate explanations to each other here and over there or something). =D
I'd be more worried it'd turn into some kind of leader. Something more like the Paladin, actually. Think.. your powers are protective, but specific to aggressive actions the enemy initiates... but you punish by allowing your ally to move around. Or damage at range.
Choices between bad things, but that don't really pick one thing to 'stop', are . . . striker in a way (choices between "six damage dice here" and "six damage dice there", lol). The defender gets in there with more than damage, he stops attacks and approaches in their tracks. The controller (see my post to the "What is a controller v2" thread, I'm reallyhoping for comments), you're sort of imitating him but not going far enough with what he does - he says there's something the opponent isn't allowed to do. He says you have to "go around" this. Your build, as conceived right now, can only say "oh, well you take damage." If they want to, they'll eat that damage. Then kill Fred the Cleric. You're making penalties, but the penalties, let me get graphical here, only make a kind of mushy wall, like slush, rather than a true veil, of entangling rope. It's something that has no force behind it, it doesn't change what the enemy party could honestly attempt.
So yeah, you are only becoming a ranged defender. (Now that in itself would be cool - as is, I'm wondering if such a thing could be balanced and also make sense in the fluff).
To make this work (and I think this could work!) please check my post the other thread. See if it applies here (it's your idea, so you have to fill it in; we can co-ordinate explanations to each other here and over there or something). =D
To be fair, the paladin's only claim to stickyness is it's ability to do damage if you ignore it. Using the same principle to "prevent" people from doing things is perfectly resonable.
Hrrmn. It could possibly be done, if the two-weapon ranger and beastmaster ranger was split off. Melee controllers are basically defenders.
The archer probably has a decent range of controller-ish powers affecting single targets - being able to slow and immobilise targets, apply penalties to attacks, and so on. Where they miss out on is the ability to create 'don't go there' zones and walls. One possibility could be to have exploits that allow the archer to maintain a barrage against a target area, either by machine-gunning the bowstring or using the 'multiple arrows on one string' trick. There may even be an argument for this to be sustainable without requiring a standard action - the archer could be mindlessly firing arrows in that general direction while picking out a target, quickly swinging the bow over to shoot that target, then resuming the barrage.
Other versions may apply some effect other than damage to targets within the barrage - applying concealment because of something being added to the arrows or because there are just that many, employing special arrows where the heads are shaped like caltrops and the shaft is designed to break off when they land to create a zone of caltrops, and so on. In fact, trick arrows can potentially give a wide range of controllerish possibilities, although having their use limited as being an encounter or daily powers rather than being limited by ammunition carried may be a bit too computer-game-ish for some. One might get away with the explanation that the character spends part of their rest periods replacing those that were used.
Hrrmn. It could possibly be done, if the two-weapon ranger and beastmaster ranger was split off. Melee controllers are basically defenders.
I believed this for a while, but now after seeing the first couple levels of the Druid I think I have a handle on what separates the melee controller from the defender. Melee controllers aren't sticky, it's really as simple as that.
I'm currently working on a different project (that inadvertently created a Martial secondary controller), but I'll be turning my attention back to the ranger soon.
As for your posts Horseshoe, I'll check them out soon.
