I'm gonna second (third? fourth?) the notion that if the OP is leaving things like minions out of their comparison, then they obviously aren't fully comprehending what exactly a controller does in the first place. The wizard may not be his old 3.5 "solo engine of destruction" self, but I'd like to see any 4e party member solo a good DM's well-controlled horde of minions without the wizard there to stop them from swarming the lone PC & whittling him down to nothing.
One of the things I like about 4e compared to 3.5 is that a high-level wizard can no longer take a leisurely stroll through a dungeon & just nuke everything he comes across sans fellow party members. They're not about dealing damage anymore & have to work with the rest of the party in an encounter, & IMO that's actually a good thing where the health of the game is concerned.
Why do you think that you need a wizard to handle minions? Every class gets AoE abilities and the Dragonborn get it as a race. A typcial party will have tons of AoE options for each encounter. Damage from them is irrelevent against minions.
Basically if you are hanging your hat on minions to make the wizard worthwhile, then the wizard is sadly suboptimal (i.e. sucks).
I applaud you, sir. You make excellent points, and raise some good comparisons.
I only wish you were on BG boards so that I could give you some +rep. For now, I'll just have to settle for giving you a cookie.
I appologize in advance for the shotgun blast that is the conglomeration of thoughts in this post.
@Polaris: You, sir, are incorrect. You frequently say that a Wizard has to use a broken trick to remain effective/stay even with the other classes. This is in no way true.
The Wizard's job in 4E is similar to the Battlefield Controller's job of 3.5. He makes the enemy significantly easier to deal with. More often than not, this means trying to win initiative, so he can drop a burst-style daily spell on a group of enemies. If he really wants to win the fight, he can use an action point to throw another one on top of it, just to make things harder for his enemies.
Battlefield control in 4E has become a lot more focused on winning the initiative. The extra round or two that you buy your allies in the beginning can easily make the difference between a cakewalk and a TPK.
If you meant that WotC made a class that sucked if it tried to go out as a blaster only, then you'd be absolutely right, but the Wizard isn't about blasting...
In addition, Wis is not the most important stat for Wizards. Sqirrelloid makes some good points, and demonstrates that a Wis-focused Wizard can be as good as other styles of Wizard. However, many other posters, including myself and Treantmonk, tend to see Int as a little bit more valuable for its bonuses to attack rolls.
The wizard does not have *fantastic* class abilities. This is indisputably true. However, that does not make it a terrible class. It means that his neat little extras are not as good as other classes' neat little extras.
On another note: Sleep + Orb, while a number of other things, is not broken. It affects one enemy and basically keeps him down. Sleep is a very good spell, but as I've pointed out elsewhere, you can't use the orb mastery on both the slow and the unconscious effects at the same time.
You also say that being forced to make a specific build to make the most of your abilities makes the class sub-par. This is also untrue, and if it weren't, it backfires into your cleric friend too.
You need a high Wisdom AND Strength to use all of the cleric's powers well?! "That sounds pretty damn specific to me."
Having a specific build that is better does not mean the class is bad. It means that parts of the class are better than others. This is true for ALL of the classes
I'll concede that WotC did not make a perfect controlling machine... But in reality, none of the other classes are much better off.
There are plenty of other things I'd love to ask about, (like the apparent ability of all monsters to teleport at will) but I think I'm going to end this rant here...
In short, I recommend that you read Treantmonk's new handbook for making the GOD wizard in 4th edition. If you feel up to it, you should also try debating this with him and other people that have worked on making the wizard rock. :D
I'm gonna second (third? fourth?) the notion that if the OP is leaving things like minions out of their comparison, then they obviously aren't fully comprehending what exactly a controller does in the first place. The wizard may not be his old 3.5 "solo engine of destruction" self, but I'd like to see any 4e party member solo a good DM's well-controlled horde of minions without the wizard there to stop them from swarming the lone PC & whittling him down to nothing.
Wizards are the indisputable king of minions. In a minion-heavy fight (let's say: eight minions, one standard, one elite), depending on the first-round formation of the enemies, you can reduce the total number of enemy actions by 4/5 in one round, usually reducing DPR by 60%. Both in terms of action economy and permanent reductions to DPR, that's not something to laugh about -- and that's not something that any other class can reliably do.
One of the things I like about 4e compared to 3.5 is that a high-level wizard can no longer take a leisurely stroll through a dungeon & just nuke everything he comes across sans fellow party members. They're not about dealing damage anymore & have to work with the rest of the party in an encounter, & IMO that's actually a good thing where the health of the game is concerned.
I played almost exclusively wizards in 3.5, but -- from a gamist perspective -- wizards were horrifically overpowered. It's amusing to see someone who thinks 3.5-era wizards were more balanced arguing that Orb+Sleep-lock is unbalanced. Uh... do you remember the half-dozen spells designed to one-shot high-CR monsters, or have you edited Phantasmal Killer and Hold Person out of your memory?
Could you perhaps tell me what all abilities the Cleric is using to -control- the battlefield? DPS isn't controlling, it's striking. How many cleric abilities change the battlefield, or cause lasting (save ends - and math or not, a "save ends" will always effect at least the monsters next turn, and you would be surprised how often something like that can work for 2-3 turns, with just a few unlucky dice. Not all the time, but not never, either.) immobilization (which yes, does very much so change how combat works, especially when you immobilize a lurker or skirmisher that is already doing hit and run tactics), stun, daze, or other monster-controlling effects?
Bear in mind, that the "average" fight (in reality, perhaps half at best, more than likely less than half are "average") is 5 players vs 5 monsters. Area effects that can damage more than one monster might as well count a x3 damage done, considering there is a very good chance you can damage 3 monsters or more in a single attack.
I think people are too used to the mentaility of "encounter = 1 monster, melee piles in front of monster and swings swings swings, ranged stay back, take a seat, and go pewpewpew" when in actuality fights in 4th Ed are -MUCH- more dynamic, with few rounds passing with a character not moving, and monsters -constantly- moving. It is all about moving your character in such a way to provide the maximum benifit from your abilities depending on how the battlefield is arranged.
Want the tl;dr of my posts? Read the bold text; I put it there to highlight the main points for ease of skimming.
Try looking A-Z. Did you include teleportation? Immobilizing doesn't affect teleportation. In addition, the party still eventually has to deal with immobilized monsters and other than not being able to move, they are otherwise unaffected. As status conditions go, Immobilization sucks. Only Slow is worse.
Monsters that can't teleport:
Aboleth, Archon, Azer, Balhannoth, Basilisk, Bat, Battlebriar, Bear, Beetle, Behemoth, Beholder, Boar, Bodak, Boneclaw, Bulette, Cambion, Carion Crawler, Chimera, Choker, Chuul, Colossus, Crocodile, Cyclops, Death Knight, Desrachan, Devourer, Displacer Beast, Doppelganger, Dracolich, all Dragons but one, Dragonborn, Dragonspawn, Drake, Drider, all Drow but one, Dwarf, Eidolon ...
... do I really need to continue?
And all monsters that aren't of the Controller or Artillery type have suboptimal missile attacks. If you've just forced a Brute to fire his crossbow at you rather than hit you with his Encounter power, congratulations: Immobilized is as least as good as Weakened. For Controllers or Artillery, you take something like Wall of Ice or Darkness. Something that blocks LoS.
I applaud you, sir. You make excellent points, and raise some good comparisons.
I only wish you were on BG boards so that I could give you some +rep. For now, I'll just have to settle for giving you a cookie.
I appologize in advance for the shotgun blast that is the conglomeration of thoughts in this post.
@Polaris: You, sir, are incorrect. You frequently say that a Wizard has to use a broken trick to remain effective/stay even with the other classes. This is in no way true.
It's absolutely true. I even give an example: the 3.0 Psion. If a class has to be built one extremely narrow way to use one synergy to be effective, then the class is problematic. You can not say, the class lacks except for XYZ and say it's balanced. It only means that the class is underpowered and XYZ is broken.
The Wizard's job in 4E is similar to the Battlefield Controller's job of 3.5. He makes the enemy significantly easier to deal with. More often than not, this means trying to win initiative, so he can drop a burst-style daily spell on a group of enemies. If he really wants to win the fight, he can use an action point to throw another one on top of it, just to make things harder for his enemies.
Yes and in 4E he doesn't pull his weight. A cleric can do the same thing almost as well and still buff/support the party (be a leader).
Battlefield control in 4E has become a lot more focused on winning the initiative. The extra round or two that you buy your allies in the beginning can easily make the difference between a cakewalk and a TPK.
You can get +4 to your Init and a reroll just with feats. If you pick an Elf (not Eldarin) which is probably the best Wizard race in the game, you get another +1 essentially for free. Initiative is important. Never said otherwise. It's not something unique to the wizard, however. Any class can pick up the two feats in question (and Dexterity is a dump stat for the wizard and that hurts the wizard all over again...wizards don't get much for Dex).
If you meant that WotC made a class that sucked if it tried to go out as a blaster only, then you'd be absolutely right, but the Wizard isn't about blasting...
Wotc's idea of 'control' seems to be AoE blasting. Seriously, have you read the spell list?
In addition, Wis is not the most important stat for Wizards. Sqirrelloid makes some good points, and demonstrates that a Wis-focused Wizard can be as good as other styles of Wizard. However, many other posters, including myself and Treantmonk, tend to see Int as a little bit more valuable for its bonuses to attack rolls.
I am on the thread, and I disputed this very point with Treemonk to the point where a third party poster actually did the mathematic analysis. Guess what? I was right. Wisdom IS more important than Int. I showed why above. Of course you only go Wisdom first if and only if you have a race that can greatly enhance it's to-hit chance on a key spell (Elf or Human).
The wizard does not have *fantastic* class abilities. This is indisputably true. However, that does not make it a terrible class. It means that his neat little extras are not as good as other classes' neat little extras.
The wizard has the worst class abilities in the game. Look it up. That would be alright if the spells made up for it. The problem is they do not.
On another note: Sleep + Orb, while a number of other things, is not broken. It affects one enemy and basically keeps him down. Sleep is a very good spell, but as I've pointed out elsewhere, you can't use the orb mastery on both the slow and the unconscious effects at the same time.
Of course it's broken. It is a save or die. It is the only true save-or-die in the game. No other combination the wizard can do comes close. You betcha it's broken.
You also say that being forced to make a specific build to make the most of your abilities makes the class sub-par. This is also untrue, and if it weren't, it backfires into your cleric friend too.
You need a high Wisdom AND Strength to use all of the cleric's powers well?! "That sounds pretty damn specific to me."
No you don't. The fact is in 4E, what was SAD (single attribute dependency) in 3.5 is now DAD (dual-attribute dependency). You can improve two stats of your choosing in lock-step and should. For a cleric Strength and Wisdom are the obvious two choices. However, as I pointed out in my article, this is by no means a requirement. You can make a perfectly viable cleric by going Wisdom and then one other attribute. You don't need your strength based powers to be a good cleric (but since you can have two prime stats in 4E it's almost silly not to).
Having a specific build that is better does not mean the class is bad. It means that parts of the class are better than others. This is true for ALL of the classes
If you have to build a class one way each time to be combat-effective (or at least optimal), then yes it means the class might be bad.
I'll concede that WotC did not make a perfect controlling machine... But in reality, none of the other classes are much better off.
The difference is that other classes can do other things while the wizard really can't.
There are plenty of other things I'd love to ask about, (like the apparent ability of all monsters to teleport at will) but I think I'm going to end this rant here...
Or used ranged attacks/powers, or simply wait for the party to come to them. Immobilization sucks. Remember too that it isn't going to last very long (1.5 rounds average).
In short, I recommend that you read Treantmonk's new handbook for making the GOD wizard in 4th edition. If you feel up to it, you should also try debating this with him and other people that have worked on making the wizard rock. :D
Could you perhaps tell me what all abilities the Cleric is using to -control- the battlefield?
Blade-Barrier, Rune of Peace, and Consecreted Ground come to mind immediately and that's just at low levels. The cleric gets plenty of control type prayers.
Let's take a long look at Cleric Encounter Powers that control the battlefield vs Wizard Encounter Powers that control the battlefield, starting at level 1. Ignore any powers that only slide, push, pull, or prone - all classes get this stuff. Also Ignore any debuffs that wind up simplely incurring penalties to rolls- deafened, marked, blinded, etc. Slow is a penalty debuff, but effectively limits what a monster can or can't do based on range. For abilities that cause a substantial effect (debuff or damage) in an area, for any duration, call those Battlefield Shaping spells (because a monster will want to avoid those, if possible). Also, no counting Paragon or Epic Destiny paths - we're judging just the base class, afterall.
Clerics: Lvl 1 Wrathful Thunder - Stunned until End of your next turn. Lvl 3 Command - Dazed until End of your next turn + Knockdown and slide Lvl 7 Awe Strike - Immobilized until end of your next turn Lvl 17 Enthrall - Area Burst 3, Immobilized and not attacking -you- until end of your next turn
That is 4 decent encounter control spells, none of which can possibly last longer than your next turn, only one of which hamper more than 1 enemy.
Wizard: Lvl 1 Chill Strike - dazed until your next turn Lvl 1 Icy Terrain - Area Burst 1, battlefield shaper that lasts until end of your next turn Lvl 3 Color Spray - Close Blast 5, dazed until end of your next turn Lvl 3 Icy Rays - 1 or 2 creatures, immobilized until end of your next turn Lvl 7 Winter's Wrath - Area Burst 2, battlefield shaper that lasts until end of your next turn Lvl 13 Frostburn - Area Burst 2, battlefield shaper until end of your next turn Lvl 13 Mesmeric Hold - 1, 2, or 3 creatures, immobilized until end of your next turn Lvl 17 Crushing Titans Fist - Area Burst 2, Immobilization and Battlefield Shaper until end of your next turn Lvl 17 Icy Tomb - stunned until end of your next turn Lvl 23 Acid Storm - Area Burst 4, Battlefield shaper until the end of your next turn Lvl 23 Thunderclap - stunned until end of your next turn Lvl 27 Confusion - Dominated, sort of, on it's next turn Lvl 27 Forcecage - Immoblized plus other stuff, until end of your next turn
So, compared to the cleric 4, a mage gets 13 Encounter control spells, none of which lasts longer than your next turn, but 8 of which can effect more than one creature, 6 of which are Area Burst effects.
4 controller encounter spells, vs 13 controller encounter spells....and the cleric is supposed to be a better -CONTROLLER- class??
-edited for accuracy.
Want the tl;dr of my posts? Read the bold text; I put it there to highlight the main points for ease of skimming.
Thunderous Word just Pushes, then lets allies shift - fighters and warlords get tons of that. I don't consider Allied Movement or Enemy Forced Movement to be strictly Controller territory - those are things that leaders and defenders also do (just like damage isn't only a striker ability).
Want the tl;dr of my posts? Read the bold text; I put it there to highlight the main points for ease of skimming.
You make excellent points, and raise some good comparisons.
"That sounds pretty damn specific to me."
