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5 years ago ::
Jun 08, 2008 - 7:45AM
#21
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Date Joined:
Apr 19, 2008
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If you want to compare the Wizard's AoE powers with the Cleric's AoE powers, you need to break the whole category down by frequency. The Cleric may well get more damaging AoE powers if they can only do so with Daily frequency powers. Now, I'm fairly confident that Clerics can get encounter AoE powers as well, but without a proper breakdown of AoE damage by frequency category the numbers you provide are relatively meaningless.
If the Cleric has to blow off an encounter or daily power just to kill a few lousy minions, for instance, I would say that they were pretty bad at Area of Effect capability.
Even then it wouldn't mean much, because the raw statistical damage data doesn't tell us if the AoE only targets enemies or if it places a bleed or status effect on the opponent. Maybe Clerics have an advantage in those areas as well, but your numbers don't prove anything the way they are now.
Even if you did that, however, the numbers wouldn't prove too much. Other class abilities like the Wizard's implement masteries, paragon path powers, feat selections, and elemental damage types can all change the equation.
Similarly the data you provide for Wizard damage vs monster HP scaling doesn't mean much at all. Even if it does take a Wizard longer to kill a monster at higher levels than at lower levels, that doesn't necessarily mean the Wizard is weak at damage. You'd also have to show that other classes improve their damage at a higher rate than the Wizard. If Strikers or Defenders take longer to kill a monster at high level rather than at low level as well, then we are looking at an expected shift in the gameplay rather than a problem with the Wizard.
D&D rules were never meant to exist without the presence of a DM. RAW is a lie.
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5 years ago ::
Jun 08, 2008 - 7:45AM
#22
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Astral storm > meteor swarm
Godstike > No mercy (fighter lv29 exploit)
... GJ clerics of the coast
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5 years ago ::
Jun 08, 2008 - 7:45AM
#23
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Date Joined:
Jan 16, 2003
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Science done with a clear and evident bias toward a given result... isn't. Wake me when a non-biased comparison is made, one that doesn't ommit factors to skew the results against the class. 
Sig to be rebuilt soonThe Descendants-- the webserial that reads like a comic book! World of Ere-- A campaign setting that puts style to the fore.
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5 years ago ::
Jun 08, 2008 - 7:52AM
#24
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Date Joined:
Jul 21, 2006
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I think it is a mistake to put aside minions in your calculations. Minions will be very common in the game and they fill a role similar to area effects. They fill spaces, do damage, give combat advantage and control your actions. As a controller, wizards are directly combatting minions for battlefield control.
The rest of what you've done seems quite detailed and I wouldn't presume to argue with it, but the premise that minions don't matter seems to inicate a lack of understanding of their true role. Well placed minions are deadly.
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5 years ago ::
Jun 08, 2008 - 8:03AM
#25
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Date Joined:
Jan 14, 2008
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Remember, wizards are controllers. Not to compare to the MMORPGs (being a sore topic with many), but honestly, the role the are intended to fill now is not unlike the CC ("Crowd Control") role in MMOs.
In Everquest/Everquest 2, for example, no one invites the enchanter/illusionist or coercer along for there ability to hurt enemies with magic. They are brought along for stuns, mesmerizes, charms, and other status effects to reduce the numbers of bad guys attacking so that the party doesn't get overwhelmed.
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5 years ago ::
Jun 08, 2008 - 8:12AM
#26
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Date Joined:
Aug 21, 2009
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I would also like to point out an interesting point. I believe they call it a ROLEplaying game, and not a ROLLplaying game. Yes, I understand that if you can't survive then you die and the game is over, but that is a risk that you take when you play the game, otherwise there would be no point to playing the game. It'd be a bore. As far as how to successfully make the wizard an effective party member I have a few suggestions:
You are meant to work as a team (i.e. the roles of defender, leader, controller, and striker.) One person is not meant to go in and nuke everbody to death.
If you don't like the spells, spell stats, etc. then change them. WotC never said you had to follow the book to the T. In fact, my DM said that wizards once said (in reference to 4e) that there are fewer spells to choose from than 3.5 because you can change them to what you want. The first wizard I plan on making is prolly going to have a much different spell selection than what is listed in the book.
Remember, it's a game that you and your friends are running not WotC. So change things how you want them to be, I don't think too many people will mind. :D
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5 years ago ::
Jun 08, 2008 - 8:25AM
#27
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Date Joined:
Oct 29, 2006
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Minion control is absolutely critical for the success of a party. Wizards with their different AoE spells address this party need nicely.
I believe you also left out magic items from the mix. When you had the wizard a Staff of the Magi, Ring of Meteor Swarm, Ring and Bracers of Protection, Cloak of Invisibility, etc...etc...
Which they may well have or have items of similar power and utility at very high levels then the wizard's ability to sustain their higher end damage spells could be pretty nicely expanded.
Having the ability to select through a wide variety of different types of attack spells to insure that you can effect a very high level monster with its variety of resists is valuable. The ability for a single wizard to obliterate ten percent of a monsters HP's all by himself at very high levels...and this is a major boss sort of a monster by the look of the posted stats...is huge.
What is the rest of the party doing? I have not looked at the stats involved but if the rest of the party can even meet out 05% of the damage required to kill a major end game monster the standard adventuring party of six has reduced that creatures hit points by 35% in the very first combat round!
So the toughest monsters are going to last maybe three to four combat rounds against the high end characters.
That is mind boggling to me...and seems very, very powerful.
In fact I would say that looking at the stats you are showing me here that the wizard over all is very powerful.
I'm not sure what more you'd want.
Unless of course you'd rather the wizard be able to go back to just dropping half the dungeon all by himself. One shot kill almost any and every major monster with one or two spells while the rest of the party wanders along in his train picking up the loot and hanging around just to make sure nobody engages the wizard in melee and starts messing up their casting ability.
In my experience wizards in earlier versions of AD&D faced some real challenges at low levels. It looks like now they are MUCH more useful and fun to play right out of the gate.
Now the wizard is just one part of a team. I wouldn't say that they are anything like they used to be. I wouldn't say that they are perfect or especially powerful. I'd say they have their own important part to play in the adventuring team.
You might personally feel that they suck in 4th edition but I think they look like they will be a lot of fun to play.
When I sit down and make a character for a game do I do the math to figure out which character class does the most damage and is the most powerful? No. Because I'm not a power gamer. I want to make up a fun personality that will be part of the group and fun.
So far I like most of what I see with 4th edition, not all, but most...because it looks like fun.
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5 years ago ::
Jun 08, 2008 - 8:30AM
#28
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Date Joined:
Aug 20, 2007
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Science done with a clear and evident bias toward a given result... isn't.
Wake me when a non-biased comparison is made, one that doesn't ommit factors to skew the results against the class.
I completely agree with this. The whole controller aspect has nothing to do with dealing out damage.
The "concept" within this edition of D&D is using these powers in conjunction with other classes. This is some of the challenge that will come into the game for people. Yes, other editions of D&D maintained the whole party idea. That idea was often cast to the wind as one player or class would end up standing out beyond all others given a particular situation.
A wizard is not meant to go toe to toe with anything alone, and neither is any other class. Of course it can happen, but everything works so much better when all of the different classes work together. If you end up trying to resist against that it won't work out too well.
Personally, I love the direction Wizards took with it and I'm looking forward to gaming a long time with this system.
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5 years ago ::
Jun 08, 2008 - 8:49AM
#29
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Date Joined:
Jul 25, 2006
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Wizards are pretty powerful, when say, figthing a dragon. They have only of the only ways of causing AUTOMATIC damage in 4ed (a ranger's paragon class also does). When figthing high defenses solos, the wiz whips out his dailies and goes to town.
On another note: i'd like to believe wiz are good to kill minions (which they are), however very few encounters seem to have minions in the higher levels (looking at KotS and the pre-made grounps in the MM). That could pose a problem.
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5 years ago ::
Jun 08, 2008 - 9:12AM
#30
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On another note: i'd like to believe wiz are good to kill minions (which they are), however very few encounters seem to have minions in the higher levels (looking at KotS and the pre-made grounps in the MM). That could pose a problem.
Any normal critter can be minion-ized, since 4 minions can stand in for one regular critter.
- - -
Wizards have better range, better sustained effects, and better blocking effects. If you're trying to deal damage with your Wizard, you're doing it wrong. Play a Warlock instead, and have more fun.
Cheers, -- N
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