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5 years ago ::
Jul 18, 2008 - 12:24AM
#111
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Date Joined:
Nov 23, 2001
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Blame the game mechanic.
Since now there is no bonus to turning undead with 5 ranks in Religion, it's less optimal to take it "if" you're trying to play an optimal cleric but since it is a class skill and there are some ritual spells that require a Religion roll why not. A wizard will more than likely be able to match if not have a higher potential to know more about your deity than you on the other hand, he/she will not have the same favor that your deity grants...i.e. all your cleric abilities.
To support that, not all clerics need to invest in Wisdom to be playable. Granted they won't be the best healers or as effective but they aren't unplayable...so you will have a good range of clergy who excel in all skills that are Str based, Con based, Wisdom based, Dex based, and Charisma based.
Since Int no longer grants extra skill points, languages, or really many attractive feats for clerics...it's the new dump stat where Dex used to be. If you wanted tok play more of a cloistered cleric you could. Have a Higher Int, a lower dex, take more skill prof. feats, and hopefully the party dynamic and difficulty level of your campaign will allow more colorful characters.
And in the end if it bothers you that much, that the wizard in your party who has an 18 Int is matching your Religion checks, tell your DM...you're a cleric, it seems strange that he would by game mechanic know more than you and ask if Reglion knowledge checks would have a DC modifier higher for those who have it untrained and maybe you getting a bonus based on your deity etc.
I'm the vessel of my deity, I don't have to be the fount of knowledge...they can read the book I'm carrying if they want to learn more about her doctrines but if they want to learn more about what she does for me? Come follow and I will show you what she can do for you through me.
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5 years ago ::
Jul 18, 2008 - 12:41PM
#112
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Date Joined:
Jul 13, 2008
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Healing Lore means having a Cleric in the party doubles the effective value of surges.
If a cleric is getting smacked, its because the fighter failed to roll the enemy with sticky rice and eat them or the controller didn't cover the frontline in ice, or the striker didn't whale on them to death.. Which they should be able to do if the cleric is helping.
On the other hand, Warlords are the most systematically broken of any of the classes. They hand out huge attack bonuses like they were candy. A group of 4 Warlords with Polearm Gamble (1 cha, 3 int) will trample everything.
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5 years ago ::
Jul 18, 2008 - 2:18PM
#113
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Date Joined:
May 14, 2008
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Sorry, but I couldn't help but laugh at this when I saw it, my friend has a AC of 20, and thats because he had everything pritty much good. What I liked was that he had exalted chain and all that.
The bast part about the clerics is that WIS is a really good stat to have (In any case almost.)
Not only do that have High Healing ability and Buff ability, that have High Wisdom stats, nlike a warlord, they have a high Heal, Perseption, and Insight check because there powers focus on Wisdom and not Charisma, not saying charisma isn't good for Intimidate, and Bluff, but when are you really going to use them again?
I think Clerics are usefull, I am a rogue and he saved not only my butt, but the whole partys many times before. We when agenst a Green Dragon, not only weakening is, but giving up mega HP healing and boosts (Not to mention help with CA.)
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5 years ago ::
Jul 18, 2008 - 3:48PM
#114
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Date Joined:
Nov 23, 2001
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I guess because this isn't the Optimization boards, when are you going to use Cha and skills like Bluff, Intimitate, and even Diplomacy?
Outside of combat for RP.
If they felt it was important enough to give Utility powers that grant large bonuses to social skills it's probably encouraged that those skills should be used...be it creatively or otherwise.
I think a good majority of players would get tired of just encounter after encounter without a healthy smathering of decent RP. There is always D&D minis and Hero Clix...
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5 years ago ::
Jul 18, 2008 - 3:51PM
#115
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Date Joined:
Aug 17, 2007
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So... I think we can assume most of us think that the OP is wrong?
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5 years ago ::
Jul 18, 2008 - 7:57PM
#116
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I'd be worried too. Four adventurers and a color running around is going to be a serious problem...
That made my day.
So that is my point. If clerics are supposed to know more about religion than anyone else, religion needs to be based on wisdom. If they are not, then it shouldn't be a required skill. Either, or. As it is, you can count on a cleric not to know squat about religion. Is there a cleric in the land who could pass an epic skill check for religion? Ever seen Skill Training: Religion on any cleric's character sheet? Intelligence-based is fine, so long as it isn't a required skill. If it is all book-learning, there would be a lot of clerics who wouldn't be trained in the skill. The clerics being played would make a lot more sense. As it is now, every cleric randomly knows more about nature and dungeoneering than religion, once he's gained a few levels. Not to mention all the clerics out there who are better at Bluff, Intimidate and Streetwise than they are at religion.
That's the thing. Cleric's tend to know more about Religion, which is why it's a class-trained skill and, subsequently, why they automatically gain a +5 bonus on their checks (proficiency). Religion itself is a knowledge-based skill, and therefore, Intelligence-based, since Intelligence, both in and out of game terms, tends to mean a person's capacity to and knowledge gained from study, whereas Wisdom is generally something attained from real-life experience: things you can't learn from books.
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5 years ago ::
Jul 18, 2008 - 9:51PM
#117
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Date Joined:
May 14, 2008
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not saying that the Social skill arn't good, but I'm a drow, and everyone
hates me, so I dont much care for the NPCs [or at least my character.]
Anyway, thats what a Paladin or someone like that is for, warlords are good,
but I say the Cleric is just a bit better. He is the ONLY one with more passive
perseption then me [a 21 to PP.] and even though it was only 3 points more
then me, it was enough to see that there was
1) An ambush that would of caught us off guard
2) A traveler that was in trouble
3) The goust of a dead child that we helped and got 500 more EXP each, and
gave up good stuff.
Like I said, not saying the CHA stuff is good, but not totaly nessessary,
unless you dont really care if you get jumped or you dont see someone in
need.
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5 years ago ::
Jul 18, 2008 - 10:05PM
#118
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Clerics get free Religion skill, because +5 to a skill is better than almost any attribute score.... and stacks with it. With difficulties are they are now, that +5 means you'll auto-success many rolls, have minimum 75% chance for success on most rolls, and at worst, 50/50 shot on rolls that were previously difficult.
The Int bonus is just gravy.
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5 years ago ::
Jul 18, 2008 - 10:12PM
#119
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Date Joined:
Jul 15, 2008
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Like I said, not saying the CHA stuff is good, but not totaly nessessary,
unless you dont really care if you get jumped or you dont see someone in
need.
Wouldn't you be happier playing a Tiefling named Angst? :P
Seriously though, CHA becomes extra important for PCs who play monster races, if they ever want to survive going through town. A few well placed Intimidates and Bluffs can keep the populace scared enough of you to let you get through without mobbing up... or hiring adventurers to take you down.
Unless, of course, your DM doesn't include the common prejudices of The Masses within their setting... which is one reason I don't allow monster PCs in my games. But I guess YMMV, as is often the case.
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5 years ago ::
Jul 18, 2008 - 11:03PM
#120
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Date Joined:
Jun 17, 2008
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The problem with Cleric is simply that some have to get out of the mindset that we've become accustomed to in previous editions. It's a completely different class now, and needs to be because of the inclusion of Healing Surges and Second Wind. One has to wipe the slate clean and rethink the concept of Cleric and realize what he is in 4e to appreciate or understand the class.
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