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5 years ago ::
Jul 07, 2008 - 5:09AM
#1
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Date Joined:
Jun 28, 2006
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Also on Enworld. Based on best available evidence (WotC_Mearls, CSR, RAW) here's how you can run Stealth.
1. Stealth does not upgrade Cover to Superior Cover, or Concealment to Total Concealment. Stealth does not connect with Targeting What You Can't See.
Ruling supported by CSR.
2. If you have Cover or Concealment from any source you can use Stealth provided your DM deems the given situation appropriate. Your DM will tell you if you can make a check. A power such as Fleeting Ghost or a skill such as Bluff that explicitly grants you a Stealth check should nearly always qualify as 'appropriate'.
Ruling supported by CSR.
3. To gain CA on an attack using Stealth, you have to be already hidden by using some other action before making that attack. When you attack from hiding, your hidden condition does not end until after completing the entirety of that attack action.
Ruling supported by WotC_Mearls.
4. Make Stealth checks against passive Perception. Players and alert enemies can use minor actions to make further Perception checks, but do not lose the benefit of their passive result by doing so. You have to beat the better of their active roll or their passive Perception.
Ruling supported by CSR and WotC_Mearls.
5. Once any enemy notices you, either by beating your Stealth with their Perception, or by reaching a viewpoint that has no lines of sight blocked by obstacles or allies (of yours) and is not obscured, that enemy can share information. If they do, you are no longer hidden against anyone capable of understanding that information. Example: Wolves hunting in a pack share information about hidden prey. Example: If one of four hobgoblins spots a hidden PC, that guy can tell his allies where the PC is hiding.
Ruling supported by WotC_Mearls and CSR.
6. You cannot try and use Stealth with a free action, but you can try with a minor action that you describe appropriately, e.g. 'I hunker down.' Literally Minor actions are enabling actions. Simple actions that usually lead to more exciting actions. Like an attack with CA
Ruling not officially supported, but does not contradict RAW and meets with consensus of opinions.
7. You can try to use Stealth to regain hiding in the same square without moving, even after making an attack, provided you fulfil all the other requirements.
Ruling supported by all official sources.
Some Examples
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Player: I walk quietly into the candle-lit room. Anyone there got better than normal vision?
DM: Nope.
Player: Alright. I try for a Stealth check.
DM: There are four guys in this room. They all saw you come in the door. You do have Concealment, but I'm disallowing the check.
Player: I Fleeting Ghost into the candle-lit room. Anyone there got better than normal vision?
DM: Nope.
Player: Alright. I try for a Stealth check.
DM: There are four guys in this room, but since you used a Rogue power that explicitly grants a Stealth check, I'm going to allow it.
Player: I charge into the torch-lit room and attack guy one. They're surprised right?
DM: Yup. You get CA.
First Non-Surprise Round
Player: Now I want to move 3-squares to that corner behind them using Ethereal Stride. That activates Shadow Walk, right? Can I try for a Stealth check?
DM: There are four alert guys in this room, but you've teleported directly behind them. They're confused and Shadow Walk has given you Concealment. Go-ahead and make that check. You're at -5 for moving more than 2-squares this turn. They'll use their passive Perception now, and then make active checks using minor actions on their turns.
Remember, there are 13 ways other than hiding or concealment to get CA, and a bunch of powers that explicitly provide it. Challenge your Rogues to be cunning. They'll love you for it.
-vk
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5 years ago ::
Jul 07, 2008 - 5:22AM
#2
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Date Joined:
May 14, 2008
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May I ask somthing though, what if an ally is in melee distence from an enemy, would the enemy take penaltys for rolling perseption or would they take an AO sence there not focusing on there current enemy?
~EDIT~
Also, now that I think about it, is the DM not thinking strate? The fleeting ghost only make it so you dont take the -5 on hide, doesn't mean the dont notice you.
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5 years ago ::
Jul 07, 2008 - 5:45AM
#3
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Date Joined:
Jun 28, 2006
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May I ask somthing though, what if an ally is in melee distence from an enemy, would the enemy take penaltys for rolling perseption or would they take an AO sence there not focusing on there current enemy?
You don't have cover unless you have cover from every communicating enemy. So if one enemy were using a ranged attack on you while at the same time another were using a close attack on you, with an ally of yours intervening, you could not Stealth because the close enemy can use a free action to tell his friend where you are. If you wanted to get fiddly with the mechanics, you could make your Stealth check against the ranged guy, then have it busted as a free action by the guy you have no cover from.
However, if only the ranged enemy were attacking you, or if his friend could not communicate, you could use Stealth because there's no one there to help the ranged guy out guessing where you are. Doing so would only give you CA against him, of course.
Also, now that I think about it, is the DM not thinking strate? The fleeting ghost only make it so you dont take the -5 on hide, doesn't mean the dont notice you.
Read as written, Fleeting Ghost does two things. 1. It obviates the -5 on hide, just as you point out. 2. It lets you 'make a Stealth check' after moving your speed. Since in Errata moving your speed has been clarified to mean moving any number of squares up to the maximum allowed, that could include moving less than your full speed, or no squares at all. Therefore the line reads 'You can make a Stealth check'. You must burn a move action to do so.
-vk
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5 years ago ::
Jul 07, 2008 - 5:57AM
#4
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Date Joined:
May 14, 2008
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You don't have cover unless you have cover from every communicating enemy. So if one enemy were using a ranged attack on you while at the same time another were using a close attack on you, with an ally of yours intervening, you could not Stealth because the close enemy can use a free action to tell his friend where you are. If you wanted to get fiddly with the mechanics, you could make your Stealth check against the ranged guy, then have it busted as a free action by the guy you have no cover from.
However, if only the ranged enemy were attacking you, you could use Stealth because there's no one there to help him out guessing where you are.
-vk
No No No, not what I meant, I'll post what I ment in example.
Ally=My ally
Stealth=Me
Enemy= Enemy
Stealth is currently in cover, and hiding from enemy, and enemy does not know were he is. Ally is in Melee range of enemy, but enemy thinks finding me is more importent. Would it be sence ally is withing melee deistence from enemy, does ally get a AO because enemy is currently looking for me, not conserned about the big minitor Ranger with 2 large Basterd swords in his hand or would enemy take a penalty for looking being that he is destracted by the 2 basterd sword weilding minitar (ally)?
Reason I am asking this is because it just wouldn't make sence if there was an enemy right infront of him (one that could take him out without a sweat) and he would still take the time looking for me? Maybe make it a Standerd action of move action to avoid penalty or the OA. I mean if there was someone right infront of you, would you take the time to look for me and rist being be-headed by my friend the minitor?
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5 years ago ::
Jul 07, 2008 - 6:09AM
#5
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Date Joined:
Jun 28, 2006
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No No No, not what I meant, I'll post what I ment in example.
Ally is in Melee range of enemy, but enemy thinks finding me is more important. Would it be that since my ally is within melee distance from enemy, does my ally get a OA because enemy is currently looking for me...
...or would enemy take a penalty for looking being that he is distracted by the my ally?
Nice situation! Sorry that I misunderstood.
First the Opportunity Attack. Nothing in the rules suggests your ally should get one on an adjacent enemy who is spending minor actions looking for you. If that enemy moves as part of their hunt for you, then that movement will trigger an OA against them.
As for any penalty. Were I DMing then I'd look for your buddy to tell me something like 'Dude, I'm in this guys face with my swords, making it hard for him to check for our Rogue. Nothing makes me think that passive Perception should be penalised by whatever else is going on, so for consistency I'm not going to apply any modifier to your enemy's active Perception. Instead I'll give you a +2 favourable situation modifier on your Stealth check.
-vk
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5 years ago ::
Jul 07, 2008 - 6:18AM
#6
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Date Joined:
May 14, 2008
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It's ok, I somtimes [most of the time] make mistakes too. But it would be funny for an enemy to try and look for you when a ally minitor is right in there face. I would be thinking the would say "Oh, so he is your friend, sorry about that, I'll leave now." then he goes running.
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5 years ago ::
Jul 07, 2008 - 6:53AM
#7
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Date Joined:
Sep 12, 2007
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I think you may be confusing cover and concealment. If you are around a corner and an enemy moves to where they can see you and can communicate your location. However this does not defeat the cover provided by the wall. The other enemies will have to move somewhere with an unblocked line of sight.
From this above post this might not be clear.
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5 years ago ::
Jul 07, 2008 - 7:35AM
#8
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Date Joined:
Jun 28, 2006
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I think you may be confusing cover and concealment. If you are around a corner and an enemy moves to where they can see you and can communicate your location. However this does not defeat the cover provided by the wall. The other enemies will have to move somewhere with an unblocked line of sight.
From this above post this might not be clear.
Do you mean in terms of granting the -2 penalty to attack rolls against you? That isn't affected by an enemy busting your Stealth by communicating to his friends. The defensive benefit of cover doesn't check to see if you are hidden or not: it always applies.
WotC_Mearls supplied the hobgoblin example. That example makes it clear you can have your Stealth busted if just one of a group of enemies spots you, irrespective of your having cover against some or all of them.
Imagine stepping into a fight with Red Hand Orcs and Blue Hand Kobolds and taking up hiding. Orcs don't speak Draconic, so a Kobold who spotted you could bust your Stealth for all his Blue Hand buddies, without helping out any of the Orcs.
-vk
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5 years ago ::
Jul 07, 2008 - 7:54AM
#9
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Date Joined:
Apr 22, 2004
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Hey, I showed this thread to my party rogue's player, and I have a few questions (I'm the DM).
1. We're not sure whether you can gain stealth by having cover from being behind an ally. Do the relative sizes of the characters matter? Is this up to the DM?
2. Let's say the rogue ducks behind a pillar. There are 3 enemies in the room. He has cover from one, completely blocked line of sight from another, and no cover from the third. Can he make a stealth check? Against who? One of the enemies can see him. If this enemy points the rogue out, who does he lose stealth against?
*edit*
3. Let's say a rogue is hidden by a wall, pillar, etc. He moves and attacks. At what point does he lose stealth? What if he uses the at-will power that lets him move 2 squares before he attacks?
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5 years ago ::
Jul 07, 2008 - 8:19AM
#10
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Date Joined:
May 18, 2008
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I'm the rogue in Dark Stryke's campaign. I have my own question about monsters pointing me out when I'm in stealth.
Example 1:
I succeed on a stealth check. I go poke someone with my dagger that turn.
Example 2:
I succeed on a stealth check. I don't poke someone with my dagger that turn. On my next turn I do.
In which example can I be pulled out of stealth from a monster communicating my location? My understanding is that with example 2 I can be pulled out of stealth, but with example 1 I cannot. Is this correct?
Edit: The power that Dark Stryke is talking about is called Deft Strike.
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