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vonklaude wrote:

All Stealth in Combat really does, bottom line, is give you Combat Advantage.

1. Stealth does not upgrade Cover to Superior Cover, or Concealment to Total Concealment. Stealth alone does not place you under the Targeting What You Can't See rules.

2. If you have Cover or Concealment from any source you can use Stealth provided your DM deems the given situation appropriate. Your DM will tell you if you can make a check. A power such as Fleeting Ghost or a skill such as Bluff that explicitly grants you a Stealth check should qualify as appropriate.

3. To gain CA on an attack using Stealth, you have to be already hidden by using some other action before making that attack. That can be an appropriate minor action. When you attack from hiding, your hidden condition does not end until after completing the entirety of that attack action.

4. Make Stealth checks against passive Perception. Alert enemies can use minor actions to make further Perception checks, but do not lose the benefit of their passive result by doing so. You have to beat the better of their active roll or their passive Perception.

5. Once any enemy notices you, either by beating your Stealth with their Perception, or by reaching a viewpoint that has no lines of sight blocked by obstacles or allies (of yours) and is not obscured, that enemy can share information. If they do, anyone capable of understanding that information knows what square you are in, but they don't automatically gain a successful Perception check: you are still hidden in that square against enemies who have not yet beaten your check.

6. If your enemy could see you were it not for Stealth, i.e. they have at least one clear LOS to you, then they know what square you are in. (If they couldn't see you irrespective of Stealth, you should be using the Targeting What You Can't See Rules.)

7. Your enemies put you on the bottom of their threat list. If they become threatened by you or told what square you are in, then they can pay attention to you without beating your Stealth check. If they try to attack you they do so with a -2 penalty due to your cover or concealment, and you still have Combat Advantage against them.

8. You have Combat Advantage against every enemy whose Perception has not beaten your Stealth check. You can have Combat Advantage this way against some enemies and not others.

9. Suggested House Rule Remaining adjacent to an enemy you just attacked or who just successfully hit you automatically disqualifies a given situation from being appropriate. If you were hidden, you're not now. Using any power that explicitly grants you a check overrides that.

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#1 supporting CSR '...if a warlock makes a successful stealth check, does he or does he not gain total concealment, effectively making him invisible because of a stealth check? Am I correct to assume that there is no way to "upgrade" to total concealment just from a shadow walk+ stealth?

The Warlock does not have Total Concealment, the Warlock is however unnoticed for the time being and still has Concealment.'

#1 supporting WotC_Mearls remarks 'The game's math assumes that the rogue gets sneak attack with just about every attack he makes' and 'when you are DMing it's OK to be liberal with letting people use the skill.' If the game's math also assumes 'a defence against ranged and melee attacks of -5 to be hit, missing automatically if the wrong square is picked, with an effective -10 on Perception checks to pick the right square' wouldn't he have said so?

#1 supporting argument When you put your stealthing player under the Targeting What You Can't See rules, the quality of their Stealth check increases by an effective +10. Any roll less than their Stealth +10 does not bust their Stealth. Why does their check improve that way? A good answer is that the entities being considered are enjoying some mode of invisibility better than Stealth. Since Stealth has no cost for use, and can be used untrained, you must ask yourself whether you want an At-Will power in your game that does not cost an action (it rides on other actions), that gives an effect that good? Why wouldn't all monsters, NPCs, and PCs use it every chance they get?

#2 supporting CSR 'On page 178 of the Players Handbook, the last paragraph on the left side of the page states "The DM tells you if a skill check is appropriate in a given situation or directs you to make a check if circumstances call for one." On Page 188 under the description of stealth, under the Cover or Concealment section it states "...You must have cover against or concealment from the creature to make a stealth check". These rules do not state that the player must be granted a stealth check. It is to the DM's discretion if they would like to allow a stealth check or not.'

#2 supporting argument Given If A, possible B; then If A, always B = unproven.

#3 supporting WotC_Mearls remark 'You can't attack stealthily; you have to already be hidden when you attack.'

#3 supporting argument Attacking ends Stealth. Mechanically, an attack, start to finish, resolves instantly: meaning the entire attack will resolve simultaneously with Stealth breaking.

#4 supporting CSR. 'The DM can choose to use either active or passive perception checks to notice Stealth. Even if an active check fails, if passive would succeed the check succeeds. An active roll is just a chance to roll better.'

#4 supporting WotC_Mearls remark 'Make your Stealth checks against passive Perception, unless a critter uses a minor action to make another Stealth check.' Note: I make the assumption that the second 'Stealth' is a typo. The context suggests 'Perception' is intended.

#4 supporting argument Regardless of readiness, enemies always get passive Perception against Stealth. Once they are alert, they can use minor actions to make active checks. WotC_Mearls generalised that from the rules on PHB281. You could reason that implies that WotC_Mearls means those rules to connect. (I don't.) In any case, since you automatically get a passive check, and may make active checks, you will always end up using your best result.

#5 supporting WotC_Mearls remark 'Remember that intelligent foes will share information. If one of the four hobgoblins spots a hidden PC, that guy can tell his allies where the PC is hiding.'

#5 supporting CSR 'The Kobold knows the rogue is there, but cannot see and therefore cannot clearly target the Rogue. If the Kobold searches and sees the rogue, the rogue still has cover. If the kobold walks up to the rogue in the bush, the rogue has no bonuses and can be seen clearly.' The Kobold described has failed their own check, but they seem to know what square to look in. Another enemy has made their check (we don't know by how much) and shared information. It seems reasonable to guess that, that is the source of the knowledge the first Kobold has. Since Joe is the same CS representative who supplied the 'no upgrade' ruling, if we should trust this ruling if we trust that one.

#5 supporting argument WotC_Mearls might have intended that 'tell his allies' means 'gives them a bonus', or 'makes them alert', or 'shows them what square to pick', or 'shows them what direction to look in'. Since the last would in effect upgrade concealment to total concealment-you've become invisible-the second to last is the better reading. It avoids by the greatest degree creating contradiction between Joe's responses.

#6 supporting evidence is same as #5. If 'tell his allies where the PC is hiding' means anything, won't that meaning include what square you are in? Or does he, having beaten your Stealth, still have to wave vaguely and mumble 'Oh, over that way... somewhere?'

#7 supporting argument. You are avoiding notice, so an enemy who doesn't feel threatened by you, or feels more threatened by someone else, ought not to be paying attention to you. However, once they do feel threatened by you, then your group needs to decide if they want Stealth to read 'if you beat their Perception check, they cannot choose you as the target of any attack they make until the start of your next turn.' (And see the arguments for #1.) If you decide Stealth doesn't read that way, then ergo it does read that you can be a target of their attacks.

#8 all sources agree.

#9 I propose this for the sake of my own sanity. It resolves a bug in the rules.

-vk

thank you very much for this, i am printing out 2 copies of this ....one for me, and 1 to give to my groups rogue.... ill keep it with my errata pages in a folder..

i really like the way you wrote the post very clearly, as not to leave things up to questioning...

thanks again!