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5 years ago ::
Jul 09, 2008 - 6:10PM
#21
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Date Joined:
Sep 26, 2005
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Its kind of bizzare that all stealth does is grant combat advantage but it is correct. It also explains why it is so easy to make a stealth check - it isn't nearly as much of an advantage anymore. Sounds fair to me. 
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5 years ago ::
Jul 09, 2008 - 6:58PM
#22
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Date Joined:
Sep 21, 2007
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Hehe. It starts to feel like WotC do not themselves have a clear answer on Stealth.
Everyone agrees that if your are in Cover or Concealment your DM can allow you a Stealth check, and if that check beats a target's Perception you have Combat Advantage against that target.
-vk
I was originally on the side of Lootus and Dete73. I still see their argument and I think it is valid. I agree with vonklaude's statement above, and I believe that is the way that the PHB author's intended the game to be played, so that is how I intend to rule it.
Regarding a situation like Kobold #3:
What confuses me and I hope is cleared up soon, is whether you get CA when you are hidden (via stealth) because your target is unaware (which is what it says in the stealth description); or you get CA because you are "unable to be seen" which is given on p.280 in reference to Invisibility/Total Concealment.
By my view, that is what determines the attack penalty for a target to hit the hidden "stealther" if they are not able to locate them (their perception fails vs. the stealther's stealth... oh crap, what have I done).
The attacker knows what square the stealther is in, but it can't clearly see the target. So, is it:
-2 for cover?
-4 (-2 cover, -2 concealment)?
or
-5 (total concealment)?
The latter was implied by Joe's response above, but was denounced earlier by other CSR's.
Why is it soooooooooooo hard!
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5 years ago ::
Jul 09, 2008 - 7:49PM
#23
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Date Joined:
Jun 29, 2006
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take CSR not so seriously please. they told me i could sneak attack with powers such as eldritch blast and magic missile. im never gonna get over that. but yes, this is the point i have been arguing in the thread i made a week ago.
all you get is combat advantage.
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5 years ago ::
Jul 09, 2008 - 8:30PM
#24
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Date Joined:
Sep 21, 2007
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take CSR not so seriously please. they told me i could sneak attack with powers such as eldritch blast and magic missile. im never gonna get over that. but yes, this is the point i have been arguing in the thread i made a week ago.
all you get is combat advantage.
So in the situation I outline, is the attack penalty simply -2 for Cover or Concealment (whichever you may have used in conjunction with the stealth skill)?
That would work for me. That's what I originally argued as well.
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5 years ago ::
Jul 10, 2008 - 12:22AM
#25
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Date Joined:
Jun 29, 2006
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So in the situation I outline, is the attack penalty simply -2 for Cover or Concealment (whichever you may have used in conjunction with the stealth skill)?
That would work for me. That's what I originally argued as well.
cover/concealment stack. but yea, just a -2 to get hit. that is pretty abusive imo.
shadow walk gives you concealment, and you go partially behind a pillar for cover. -4 for stuff to hit you. woots.
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5 years ago ::
Jul 10, 2008 - 1:48AM
#26
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Date Joined:
Jun 28, 2006
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The latter was implied by Joe's response above, but was denounced earlier by other CSR's.
Joe's response is artistic. See if you can answer the following questions based on it
1. What effect did Kobold #2 have?
2. What rules covered the actions of Kobold #1? Were those the Targeting What You Can't See rules?
Like I said, a strange voyage of discovery. Have fun!
-vk
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5 years ago ::
Jul 10, 2008 - 7:21AM
#27
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Date Joined:
Jun 28, 2006
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Updated the update taking into account HF's findings. He asked good questions. Though it's a fun puzzle to work out what the answers mean -vk
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5 years ago ::
Jul 11, 2008 - 10:26AM
#28
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Date Joined:
May 20, 2007
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Except for Lootus.
Not so – I completely agree that Stealth can give you Combat Advantage – if the target is not aware that you are hiding in a nearby square.
The only things that all of the back and forth has proven is that some people don’t like the way the rules work as they appear in the 4th edition PHB, and would prefer that characters be able to use the Stealth skill for a use that isn’t in the rules – that is, to gain combat advantage every round in addition to the benefits of hiding and sneaking around.
Here is a summary:
”Not Aware” vs. “Unnoticed, unseen, and unheard”
Choosing to interpret the words “not aware” to mean what you want is pretty weak. Just flipping to Chapter 9 of the PHB (The Combat Sequence) reveals the only reason why Combat Advantage is mentioned in the Stealth skill description in the first place:
1. Determine surprise. The DM determines whether any combatants are surprised. If any combatants notice enemy combatants without being noticed in return, the aware combatants gain a surprise round.[/quote]
Which brings us to…
Valid ways of using Stealth to gain Combat Advantage:
[list=1] Stealth helps you get a surprise round, it’s that simple.
Now, since the skill doesn’t say that a character hidden with Stealth must reveal themselves (or is automatically revealed) in the surprise round, it makes sense that there’s no reason why a character couldn’t “save” their surprise round action (i.e. remain hidden until they choose to make an attack with Combat Advantage) until they reveal themselves. When you put two and two together, it follows that this is the only reason why Combat Advantage had to be mentioned in the Stealth skill description in the first place – because otherwise people might think that you couldn’t get Combat Advantage with an attack after the surprise round on a target that still wasn’t aware of you (because you were remaining hidden).
Benefits of Stealth against opponents who are aware of you:
As it should be, being successfully hidden with Stealth is basically the same as Total Concealment against those that can’t see you, as far as defense is concerned. Once you obtain cover or concealment and attempt to hide, an opponent must jump through several hoops to target you:
[list=1] Use their passive Perception check against your active Stealth check (automatic).
If #1 fails, then if the opponent can simply maneuver so that you no longer have Cover or Concealment from them (unblocked line of sight), they automatically see you (Stealth breaks immediately against that opponent).
Since #1 and #2 are certainly not reliable options, an opponent can attempt an active Perception check by using a Standard Action (at least they’ll see what you’re up to).
For those opponents who have better things to do with their Standard Action, they can use a Minor Action to make an active Perception check – but success on this only lets them be certain of what square you’re hiding in (oh…and they need to beat your check by 10! ).
If the opponent hasn’t beaten your active Stealth check, but they either succeed with #4, another ally (that can see you) tells them what square you’re hiding in, or they correctly guess the square you’re in, they are free to blindly attack your position with the usual -5 penalty (unless they have an area effect handy).
Now all of this generally amounts to making you, the skillful hidden character, a royal pain to get at. As if that weren’t bad enough news for the opponent, you can attack and then re-hide with but a Minor Action. A really intent opponent could start readying actions and hope that you do what they expect you to – or they could just target another character that’s in plain view and ignore you (or hope that you will decide to remain hiding for the rest of the encounter).
Attacking from Stealth:
Here are the valid scenarios:
Target is not aware of you:
[list=1]You used Stealth to sneak up on a target and gain a Surprise round. You get Combat Advantage against any Surprised opponents.
As in #1, however you choose to remain hidden while other characters act in the Surprise round. When you successfully remain hidden in this way, you will get the Combat Advantage on your first attack from Stealth, because it’s a special situation where a target not being aware of you is not directly connected to the target being Surprised during the Surprise round. For example, say you are hiding while the rest of the charactes engage an enemy (either the characters do not have a surprise round or the enemies have a surprise roung). The hidden character may still effectively gain the benefit of a surprise round when they reveal themselves – regardless of the actual surprise round consequences.
Target is aware of you:
[list=1]You are hidden, and make an attack. As it says in Stealth, if you later attack or shout, you are no longer hidden. You don’t get Combat Advantage for your attack, and you must then use at least a Minor Action to make another active Stealth check (you still retain the advantage of any Cover or Concealment from the square you occupy).
So that’s it – all of this with one skill - but you still want more? You want to use the Stealth skill to gain the defensive benefits of total concealment on every turn, and the offensive benefits of a surprise round on every turn?
Some Other Observations:
- If Stealth was meant to be used to obtain Sneak Attacks from range this often using the Stealth skill, why the increased damage die with the Shuriken? Wouldn’t this be redundant? (this would be why this Class Feature uses a light thrown weapon that is ranged only – not a light melee/ranged weapon such as the dagger)
- If Stealth was meant to be used to obtain Sneak Attacks from range whenever Cover is available using the Stealth skill, wouldn’t a more appropriate name have been chosen for the “Backstabber” feat? However, if the authors assumed that the majority of Sneak Attacks would be achieved from flanking, the name makes perfect sense.
Thoughts/comments?
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5 years ago ::
Jul 11, 2008 - 11:51AM
#29
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Date Joined:
Nov 28, 2006
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Shadow walk: conc till the end of your next turn.
Stealth: unless a creature is distracted you must have cover or concealment to make a stealth check.
SO... minor(curse),Standard(attack power),move(gaining conc)
next turn rinse repeat.
There are several things going on here which are not being adapted to,
Stealth, includes move silent, hide in shadows, improved feint, create diversion etc...
Perception, includes listen,spot,search,sense motive, etc...
You no longer just roll a check, you have to substantiate it. ie:
The rogue sneaks past the guards(stealth check as move silent and hide in shadows), then climbs a wall(athletics check), then stops at the window to see if the room is empty(perception check as listen cause its dark and he cant see), then creeps across the floor(stealth as move silent), then attempts to open the locked door as quietly as possible(thievery and stealth), then proceeds to slink into the hallway unseen(stealth as hide), and finally when confronted(init) he sneak attacks from a concealed position(stealth) then turns and leaps over the bannister(acrobatics) and has cover from the banister and gains concealment from the wall in the hallway, (stealth check) to remain hidden next turn when his opponent comes down the stairs.
Its not up to the Dm to say you cant do things, its up to the Dm to say what kind of DC your PC is attempting to do and it's up to you to describe(ie roleplay)what kind of skills/feats/powers that you will use to gain the desired effect.
katrick
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5 years ago ::
Jul 11, 2008 - 12:03PM
#30
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Date Joined:
Sep 21, 2007
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Let me preface this by saying that I think Lootus makes some great points about the balancing effects of the offensive and defensive benefits of stealth. I think his interpretation is very fair to both the stealthers and the stealthed. I particularly like his view of ruling "sniping". That said...
Stealth helps you get a surprise round, it’s that simple.
I completely disagree with this. Why? You only get ONE action in a surprise round. This is clear as day in the rules.
Granting a surprise round for stealth means you can only make the surprise attack and your turn ends there, OR, the attacker can make an extra attack. First, they make the surprise attack, the surprise round ends, then they also get their normal actions following the initiative order.
Furthermore, if stealth granted a surprise round, the CA table on page 280 should read "surprised, p.188 and p.267. There is no need for the "unaware of you p.188" entry unless it is something different.
There would be no need for a CA entry in Stealth; it would say you are granted a Surprise Round.
The mechanics simply don't work because you are pulling rules from various parts of the PHB to fit your view of how the rule should work. This is chillingly similar to the people out there claiming that using stealth to hide upgrades your cover/concealment to total concealment. Once again, they are pulling rules from various areas to fit with their view of how the rules should work.
I maintain that Stealth is something in and of itself. It is not a renaming of any other rules.
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