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5 years ago  ::  Mar 13, 2008 - 4:03PM #1
Friendlyfish
Date Joined: May 1, 2006
Posts: 377
I think the whole pact thing is pretty cool- but I have one beef with it. It's too passive, too "Faustian". In the current incarnation, warlocks have to beg the higher worlds for their juice. What about the opposite: Demonbinders? If you have to bargain with devils for power, why couldn't you just lock demons up and make them give you the juice?

I think it provides a little bit more of a palatable fluff for folks for whom, religious issues notwithstanding, the idea of bargaining with devils makes them a trifle uncomfortable, even for an obviously make-believe game.

For some reason, the idea of demonbinding doesn't give me as much of a visceral reaction. You're just harnessing the evil to fight evil, or what not. Or just harnessing evil to do evil, whatever floats your boat.

I suppose I could just house-fluff it that way.
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5 years ago  ::  Mar 13, 2008 - 4:58PM #2
LordofNightmares
Date Joined: Dec 8, 2004
Posts: 1,108
For the possible religious issues for players, Warlocks also have access to Fey pacts (being gifted the secrets of their power from creatures of the feywild) as well as the cryptic "stars above and the darkness between them" pacts (presumably far realm or "whomever's willing to listen").

As for not liking the Warlock "begging" and/or "bargaining" aspects. Homebrew that part out, make them more like Ur-priests or binders if you so desire.
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5 years ago  ::  Mar 13, 2008 - 5:05PM #3
UmbraSemita
Date Joined: Jan 7, 2008
Posts: 74
Why are you even worrying about it? If a player wants to play a warlock, they are coming up with the back story. Their back story in no way has to mesh with the fluff given, you just have to give them the go ahead.
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5 years ago  ::  Mar 13, 2008 - 6:23PM #4
Dragoncat
  • Hero Craftsman Gold Medalist
Date Joined: Oct 19, 2004
Posts: 1,727
Not every pact is so dire, not every practitioner so dark.

Want two examples?

In a little story called Magic, Inc, by Heinlein, a witch is hired to help repair a business building. It's been royally walloped by water, earth, and fire. She conjures three spirits, an undine, a gnome, and a salamander.

Now, the latter of the three is a capricious, simple critter, who see burning things as a wonderful pastime, not in a malevolent sense, but out of pure, natural instinct. But the witch needs the fire damage removed, and he has the power to do it. So, they bargain.

Light a hearth, keep it burning for a year to give me a place to play. That would be the price he names.

Or there's the wonder that is the Dresden Files. Now, Harry Dresden's a wizard, but he does make a pact or two. Take for example, Storm Front.

He needs information about a certain house, and if a certain person has been there. He creates a circle of magic, hides the trigger that will lock in a fae, and adds some honey as a lure. Along comes Toot, who investigates, scans the area, then jumps in to grab the morsel. Harry closes up the trap, the two banter, and strike a deal.

Toot flies off to consult the local populace. In turn, Harry orders them pizza for a week. Fey looooooooove pizza.


Not every pact is some terrible price, bent on corruption. Sometimes, you need something done halfway across the multiverse, and you're busy with your Powerful Extraplanar Stuff. Along comes a little warlock, calling you up one day. He needs the Booms. You have the Booms. You need someone to go smack a cultist of Another Extraplanar Power upside the head. He's near the cultist. You strike a deal.

That, or your a Being of the Stars. The Stars are vast. The Stars are ancient. The Stars get really, really boring. So, to add some spice to floating in the void, why not toy with mortals? Heck, for the cost of a tiny burst of heat, which you can get at the white dwarf down the lane, he'll go running across creation, creating crop circles that serve no purpose whatsoever. By the time you're three eons old, that kind of stuff gets pretty funny.

This is why the Fey and Star packs exist. Not everyone wants souls. Not everyone needs souls. Heck, many powers have no use for souls whatsoever. Sometimes it is outer forces that say "To fulfill the prophecy, go switch the two babies, thus ensuring they will be raised accordingly." Or maybe it's "Strip naked, clad yourself in leaves, and dance around the mushroom ring." Or perhaps "Dude, I seriously have the muchies. Gimme your rations, man."

....Don't look at me like that. Fey have herb gardens. Special herb gardens.
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5 years ago  ::  Mar 13, 2008 - 8:16PM #5
Subedei
Date Joined: Dec 1, 2005
Posts: 1,258
Making pacts with the devil are supposed to be very, very dangerous. They're supposed to make you uneasy.

Folklore is rife with stories about deals gone wrong. It's also rife with stories about some crafty individual who tricks the devil and actually wins.

Political correctness be damned, they need to be true to the spirit of the source material here.
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5 years ago  ::  Mar 13, 2008 - 8:32PM #6
Merlord
Date Joined: Aug 15, 2007
Posts: 57
I agree that some Faustian unease is cool, and Faust is a great source. That said, I loved Dragoncat's proposed fluff for few and star powers. That is awesome!
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5 years ago  ::  Mar 13, 2008 - 8:53PM #7
G-pa
Date Joined: Oct 27, 2007
Posts: 646
Generally, power at a cost or with a hook is more interesting than free power. Make it an epic tier adventure arc for the Warlock to free him/herself from the other pactmaker.
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5 years ago  ::  Mar 13, 2008 - 9:30PM #8
ineluki75
Date Joined: Aug 17, 2007
Posts: 15

Dragoncat wrote:

Not every pact is so dire, not every practitioner so dark.

Want two examples?

In a little story called Magic, Inc, by Heinlein, a witch is hired to help repair a business building. It's been royally walloped by water, earth, and fire. She conjures three spirits, an undine, a gnome, and a salamander.

Now, the latter of the three is a capricious, simple critter, who see burning things as a wonderful pastime, not in a malevolent sense, but out of pure, natural instinct. But the witch needs the fire damage removed, and he has the power to do it. So, they bargain.

Light a hearth, keep it burning for a year to give me a place to play. That would be the price he names.

Or there's the wonder that is the Dresden Files. Now, Harry Dresden's a wizard, but he does make a pact or two. Take for example, Storm Front.

He needs information about a certain house, and if a certain person has been there. He creates a circle of magic, hides the trigger that will lock in a fae, and adds some honey as a lure. Along comes Toot, who investigates, scans the area, then jumps in to grab the morsel. Harry closes up the trap, the two banter, and strike a deal.

Toot flies off to consult the local populace. In turn, Harry orders them pizza for a week. Fey looooooooove pizza.


Not every pact is some terrible price, bent on corruption. Sometimes, you need something done halfway across the multiverse, and you're busy with your Powerful Extraplanar Stuff. Along comes a little warlock, calling you up one day. He needs the Booms. You have the Booms. You need someone to go smack a cultist of Another Extraplanar Power upside the head. He's near the cultist. You strike a deal.

That, or your a Being of the Stars. The Stars are vast. The Stars are ancient. The Stars get really, really boring. So, to add some spice to floating in the void, why not toy with mortals? Heck, for the cost of a tiny burst of heat, which you can get at the white dwarf down the lane, he'll go running across creation, creating crop circles that serve no purpose whatsoever. By the time you're three eons old, that kind of stuff gets pretty funny.

This is why the Fey and Star packs exist. Not everyone wants souls. Not everyone needs souls. Heck, many powers have no use for souls whatsoever. Sometimes it is outer forces that say "To fulfill the prophecy, go switch the two babies, thus ensuring they will be raised accordingly." Or maybe it's "Strip naked, clad yourself in leaves, and dance around the mushroom ring." Or perhaps "Dude, I seriously have the muchies. Gimme your rations, man."

....Don't look at me like that. Fey have herb gardens. Special herb gardens.


Can I have your kittens? :D

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5 years ago  ::  Mar 14, 2008 - 5:35AM #9
Axiomatic_Badger
Date Joined: Sep 26, 2006
Posts: 308

Dragoncat wrote:

"Strip naked, clad yourself in leaves, and dance around the mushroom ring." Or perhaps "Dude, I seriously have the muchies. Gimme your rations, man."

....Don't look at me like that. Fey have herb gardens. Special herb gardens.


Damn you. Now I have coke all over my desk.
R&C states that Pact givers may grant power freely, or have to be coerced. So demonbinding would be quite acceptable as a pact source.
I'm currently planning on playing a Star-Pact user. He hasn't made any actual pact, he simply learned to hear the voices of the stars, and the terrible truths they hold. (No Outside pacts for me! Just pure, natural horrible fleshwarping secrets man was not meant to know.)

You will fear my Laser Face!
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5 years ago  ::  Mar 14, 2008 - 6:40AM #10
Batshido
Date Joined: Nov 4, 2006
Posts: 5,419
I'm personally looking forward to playing a Raistlin-esque "promising young magic-user who finds himself beholden to an unnamed spirit in return for amplified power" Wizard/Warlock.

I figure that particular pact in the Dragonlance canon would probably be Infernal.
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