Also, this is currently being edited, as in RIGHT NOW, so parts may be inconsistent! If anyone can think of good Monk implements please post your ideas!
I keep changing it up, Added the Focus class ability to deal with the possible imbalance of the +1 to movement speed.
I'm thinking a Monk's Centering Implement can be enchanted with most of the weapon enchants in the PHB. The cost I'm unsure of...1/2 magic weapon cost maybe?
[FONT="Comic Sans MS"]Monk[/FONT]
"My body is my weapon; when I strike, your steel becomes obsolete."
Role: Striker. You dart in to attack, do massive damage, and then retreat to safety. You do best when teamed with a defender distract enemies. Power Source: Ki. You are trained to tap into a power that flows through all things. Controlling Ki begins with controlling oneself, mastering the flow of Ki through your body before manipulating the streams that surround you. Key Abilities: Wisdom, Constitution, Strength Armor Proficiencies: Cloth, leather Implement Proficiencies: Centering Implements (Prayer Beads, Quarter Staff...) Bonus to Defense: +1 Fort, +1 Will
Hit Points at 1st Level: 12 + Constitution score Hit Points per Level Gained: 5 Healing Surges: 6 + Constitution modifier
Trained Skills: Acrobatics and Insight plus two others. From the class skills list below, choose two more trained skills at 1st level. Class Skills: Acrobatics (Dex), Athletics (Str), Endurance (Con), Heal (Wis), Insight (Wis), Intimidate (Cha), Nature (Wis), Perception (Wis), Religion (Int), Stealth (Dex)
Build Options: Powerful Monk, Stalwart Monk Class Features: Unarmed Master, Ki Strike, Untouchable, Deadened Nerves
Powerful Monk Wisdom is your main ability score, but Strength should come a close second, with Constitution as a third. Select the Undeniable Strength class feature. Suggested Feats: Weapon Focus: Unarmed, Martial Arts, Improved Ki Strike Suggested Skills: Athletics, Intimidate, Stealth Suggested At-Will Powers: Flurry of Blows, Subtle Strike Suggested Encounter Power: Fists of Stone Suggested Daily Power: Thunderous Fists
Stalwart Monk Wisdom is your main ability score, but Constitution should come a close second, with Strength as a third. Select the Master of Body class feature. Suggested Feats: Toughness, Defensive Mobility, Combat Reflexes, Challenging Ki Strike Suggested Skills: Endurance (Con), Heal (Wis), Perception (Wis) Suggested At-Will Powers: Stunning Strike, Powerful Throw Suggested Encounter Power: Devastating Throw Suggested Daily Power: Trading Blows
You have been trained to maintain your concentration even in the midst of battle. As a Minor action, once per round you can become focused. Your Focus lasts until the end of your turn, or until it is expended.
You can expend your Focus to strengthen your unarmed attacks with your Ki, doing additional force damage when you strike flesh. As a minor action, you can add Ki Strike damage to an attack. This bonus can only be applied once per round.
Also, you can expend your focus to add +1 to your movement speed until the beginning of your next turn.
Monk Tactics
Undeniable Strength: Your strength is such that it drives your Ki when you attack. You may substitute your strength modifier instead of your Wisdom on Constitution for damage on any Monk attack.
Master of Body: When you expend a healing surge, you gain a +1 bonus to AC and Reflex defense until the end your next turn.
Centering Implement
Monks channel Ki through their bodies, but they also use objects to center themselves. A Centering Implement is an item chosen by the Monk that serves as his center of Ki. He can Function without it, but using a Centering Implement gives him a great advantage in combat.
Centering Implements can be any object or weapon that can easily be carried on the Monk's body. Prayer beads, a quarterstaff, or even unique rocks are often used by Monks as their implements. Centering Implements can be Enchanted, as described later (to be added soon, hopefully).
Unarmored Mastery
If you are wearing no armor or leather armor, you may choose to add your Wisdom to your AC and/or Reflex Defense in place of the modifier normally used.
Stunning Strike Monk Attack 1 Your strike your enemy in a sensitive area, limiting their ability to move. At-Will * Ki, Focus Implement Standard Action Implement Attack Wis vs. Fort Hit 1d6 + Str and the target is Slowed until the end of your next round. Increase to 2d6 at 21st level
Subtle Strike Monk Attack 1 Your attack follows the flow of Ki, slipping past your target's armor. At-Will * Ki, Focus Implement Standard Action Implement Attack Wis vs. Ref Hit 1d6 + Wis Increase to 2d6 at 21st level This is your basic attack.
Flurry of Blows Monk Attack 1 Your attack so quickly that multiple blows land. At-Will * Ki Standard Action Attack Wis vs. AC Hit 1d6 + Str and if the attack hits, make a secondary attack Increase to 2d6 at 21st level Secondary Target same target Secondary Attack Wis -3 vs AC Secondary Hit 1d6 Increase to 2d6 at 21st level
Quivering Palm Monk Attack 1 Your attacks punishes your opponent's body, hitting sensitive areas that continue to hurt. At-Will * Ki, Focus Implement Standard Action Implement Attack Con vs. Fort Hit 1d4 + Wis and target takes ongoing 3 damage Change to 2d4 + Wis and 6 ongoing at 21st level.
Devastating Throw Monk Attack 1 You overpower your opponent, planting your feet and bodily throwing them into their ally. Encounter * Ki, Focus Implement Standard Action Implement Attack Con vs. Fort Hit 1d6 + Wis and you switch places with the target (shift as a free action), throwing it up to 1 square from the space you previously occupied. If available make a secondary attack Master of Body You may throw the target a number of squares equal to your Constitution modifier. Secondary Target any creature within your throwing range Secondary Attack Wis vs Ref Secondary Hit 1d6 + Str and target is moved one space in any direction and falls prone, and the original target falls prone in the secondary target's space. Miss The original target falls prone in the space you initiated the power in.
Dancing Fists Monk Attack 1 You blur with speed, dancing and striking your foes as you go. Encounter * Ki, Focus Implement Standard Action Implement Special you may shift up to 1/2 your speed when you use this power, and may attack up to 3 times as you pass enemies (including those you begin and end adjacent to), but you cannot attack more than 1 target per square you shift into, you cannot attack the same target more than twice, and you cannot shift through the same square twice while using this power. Attack Str vs. Ref Hit1d6 + Str
Switching Sides Encounter * Ki, Focus Implement Standard Action Implement Special you may use this power in the middle of a move action without interrupting your movement Attack Wis vs. Will Hit you switch places with the target (shift as a free action) and lash out at them or another nearby. Make a secondary attack. Secondary Targetany adjacent creature after your shift Secondary Attack Str vs AC Secondary Hit 1d6 + Str
Fists of Stone Monk Attack 1 As you strike your target, your fists harden until they are as tough as rock. Encounter * Ki, Focus Implement Standard Action Implement Special when you use this power, your receive a +2 bonus to attack and damage for this round and the next, but the bonus can only be applied to one attack per round. Undeniable Strength the attack and damage bonus from this attack is equal to your Strength modifier. Attack Str vs. Fort Hit 1d6 + Str
Thunderous Fist Monk Attack 1 You strike your target, and the blow creates a shockwave that damages nearby enemies. Daily * Ki, Focus Implement, Thunder Standard Action Implement Attack Str vs Ref Hit 1d6 + Str and make a secondary attack Secondary Target all creatures adjacent to the target except you Secondary Attack Wis vs Fort Secondary Hit 2d4 + Wis Thunder damage
Can't Touch This Monk Attack 1 Ki infuses you, making you a ghostly storm of death. Daily * Ki, Focus Implement, Necrotic Standard Action Implement Special make 3 attacks against one target. Attack Wis vs Will Hit 1d6 + Wis Special each time you hit during this power, you gain +1 to your AC and all your defenses until the end of your next turn.
Trading Blows Monk Attack 1 An enemy strikes you, and Ki guides you to strike back with a stunning blow. Daily * Ki, Focus Implement Standard Action Implement Attack Wis vs Will Hit 2d6 + Con and target is weakened (save ends)
I'd like to thank mplindustries, SilverSorceror13, vialle, pyromancer2k for their ideas so far! Also, I changed Quivering Palm from GeneralHenry and put it in.
Question. Why give the monk proficiency with weapons they're not ever going to use? None of the powers you listed have [W] for damage, they're all set in stone like spells.
If a monk can use a weapon, why not let 'em use it?
Also, why is ki strike such a low bonus? It should be 1d6. It can apply to only one target per attack, and one attack per round, just like sneak attack, hunters quarry, and warlock's curse. Why have it be a lower damage bonus?
Part of the reason Ki Strike is so low is that I was comparing it to sneak attack. With the 1/2 Wisdom modifier and no Combat Advantage requirement, I would say that Ki Strike can add as much damage as Sneak Attack per encounter. There will likely be a feat to increase this damage in some way (though likely not in straight up hit die. I'm thinking of a Monk as more constant damage than burst like a Rogue).
For weapons, I guess I just added them in there for the heck of it. I'll probably edit that out, but if you notice some powers DON'T require weapons to allow for a little variety while multi-classing.
As to the Enhanced Body question, the purpose of Enhanced body is that Monks don't get to use weapons, and magical weapons get increases to attack as you increase in level. The Monk progression is a bit faster than this progression. I wanted to give them a bit of an advantage in unarmed combat over the Multi-Class feat (which I have statted out, but not added yet). I probably need to go over the magic item section a bit deeper to come up with a better description for this power; I just defaulted to 3e magical items.
It was horrible of me, I know.
Anyway, keep up the comments! It's good to see replies so soon!
Also, I'll be working on one of my favorite class concepts from 3.5, the Hexblade! It's just so easy to make classes in 4e that I can't resist!
I am extremely fond of the Monk concept and because of that I will probably be a little more harsh. I need to have some elaboration on the Deadened Nerves class feature as well as the explanation of the untouchable feature...is that like in India or is that you can't hit me.
I really don't like it. I mean, unlike most people, your at-wills are decently balanced, but so much of the rest runs counter to standards.
First, adding 1d4 + Wis is a silly way to try and further synergize Wisdom. Just do it like the curse or hunters quarry: 1d6 per tier. It should not be as good as sneak attack considering it has no requirements.
I find Enhanced Body to be silly. Why not just use Implements? Surely you could create something appropriate like prayer beads, a gi, or belts to provide a magical bonus to your unarmed attacks.
Likewise, making the unarmed strike an entirely separate weapon is a little odd. If you just use implements and set the damage for the attacks, then offer the ability to replace the Implement keyword with the Weapon keyword, I think it might work better. Perhaps you'd need to give a slight attack bonus though when using Implements to make up for the proficiency bonus. Anyway, setting the damage would also allow you to scale the damage up appropriately at later levels without making a monk all that amazing at opportunity attacks (I think only defenders are supposed to be good at OAs based on the way rules are structured. That, or strikers are supposed to be specifically bad at them).
Unarmored Mastery is crazy. It easily blows all other strikers away on defenses. I'd suggest, as I have to others before, just allowing Wisdom to substitue for Dex/Int, and possibly even Str/Con if you really want it to, for the purposes of Ref/Fort, if you are not wearing heavy armor or using a shield, that is. That way, all your defenses, AC included, will be about the same, so it balances a little better (You'll have better Fort/Ref/Will than most, but lower AC, and probably by the same amount, too...and it'd actually lower MAD for monks, which is a refreshing change I think from previous editions).
Oh, and both Monk tactics are way too powerful. Strikers only really need their +d6 feature and some good encounter/daily powers to DPS. They certainly don't need to add stats twice! Thats much more powerful than Brutal Scoundrel, which requires special circumstances (Combat Advantage) and is at base, MAD (by requiring both Dex and Str).
The healing one, well, thats a huge defensive bonus. If you actually keep Unarmored mastery how it is (and even if you do as I suggested), you'll be very capable of out defensing a defender, and will likely be the one chosen to stand toe-to-toe with horrible big enemies while the rest of your party throws healing surges at you. It also needs a duration. I was assuming until the end of your next turn like most, but without a listing, it lasts by default until the end of the encounter.
Here, you may want to post your idea here, where others have. You'll also see my other ideas there, which, while far from perfect, are pretty awesome I do say so myself
Thank you for the input! I tried really hard to balance the powers, but you're absolutely right...this build has WAY too much defense for a striker. I must admit I wanted him to be a bit defensive in nature compared to other strikers, but I took it a bit too far! I'll go back and change some of it.
Also, I never thought of using implements to account for the weapon bonuses. Great idea! It would also open up something to take the place of the offensive Monk tactic. I'll have to think about that... Hopefully you'll keep coming back and addressing the flaws in my design!
Edit: As to making unarmed it's own 'weapon' per se: the reason I did this was to allow for a Monk training feat that opened up Unarmed possibilities for other characters. The Monk should be able to make awesome Unarmed attacks as far as I'm concerned, but I'll give it some thought and see if I can come up with a balancing factor.
While I hesitate to make the issue more complicated for you, personally I think the idea of a monk being crippled without their implement to be counter to th very idea of a monk. You know, inner power, modest belongings, and such. Of course, maybe I'm missing something, having only gone over the book twice and not having a chance to actually play yet.
A wizard losing their staff, sure, they might be weakened. But a monk? "Hey look, I got your prayer beads, you can't smack me any more." But perhaps I'm reading something wrong.
Damn you people and your contradictory replies that all make sense. DAMN YOU!!
But, seriously, you make a good point. Why should the Monk, driven by his own control of Ki, be dependent on an item? The only thing I can come up with atm is that he can change his Focus Implement during an extended rest...to something as simple as a rock if he wishes. I'm probably going to add "Focus Implement Templates" that can be applies to what ever implement you have chosen once every so many levels for free, and otherwise changed through a week-long Ritual or something. The Templates would be level dependent and
ADD much? There's probably a simpler solution out there. After, 4e is all about simplicity. If I happen to have a genius moment I'll pass it along. But I like the class idea so far. :D
If you think about it, having the Monk choose a "template" for their Implement isn't any more complicated than giving different Implements for Casters to choose from (note: buy, find, etc) as they level.
A "template" would just be a certain at-will/daily/encounter power specific to the Focus Implement, just like some Caster Implements.
Monks could use unarmed attacks as weapons, but then you'd have to have some really constricting rules concerning powers because hitting for 3[W] unarmed isn't too bad, but hitting for 3[W] with a maul is crazy. Also, how do you balance that out to at-will/encounter/daily powers attached to the weapon?
Monks could use implements, but this really doesn't make sense to me. Why? Why aren't they just hitting stuff? They would be the only melee class with an implement. It just doesn't make sense. Most implement don't fit the class and are made for casters. Making my own monk-implements is too time consuming and hard to balance. Giving the Monk his own special implement that has set stats runs into the same problems at weapons: what about attached at-will/encounter/daily powers?
I don't know where to go from here, I'll likely keep the set power damage but go back to melee and come up with an alternative class ability that consumes the Monk's magical-item-use charges.
suggestion, daily power (usable a number of times per day equal to 1/2 monk level) maybe not the best format, but i do not own the books, i still have 3.5, (this is of course an attempt to bring back quivering palm) how many bbegs have good fortitude saves?
utility/combat
Ki power Standard action Futae No Kiwami (mastery of two layers) Special:, you must be at least level 10 to take this power, it can also be used to shatter hard surfaces such as stone or steel plate
Hit Damage: D12+wis+str (if used against metal armor or similar material, (such as a rock or boulder it shatters) it is first a strike with the lower knuckles followed by the upper and ignores hardness) damage at 20th level 3d12+strx3+wisx3, fortitude save or be disentigrated (dc=damage dealt)
Attack Wis+Str Vs Ac
finally the monk gets a save or die ability (at least at 20th) as well as utilitarian goodness
Monks could use unarmed attacks as weapons, but then you'd have to have some really constricting rules concerning powers because hitting for 3[W] unarmed isn't too bad, but hitting for 3[W] with a maul is crazy. Also, how do you balance that out to at-will/encounter/daily powers attached to the weapon?
Than limit the powers weapon choices. See EVERY rogue power. REQUIREMENT: Must be wielding X, Y, or Z.
KaynDarksbane wrote:
Monks could use implements, but this really doesn't make sense to me. Why? Why aren't they just hitting stuff? They would be the only melee class with an implement. It just doesn't make sense. Most implement don't fit the class and are made for casters. Making my own monk-implements is too time consuming and hard to balance. Giving the Monk his own special implement that has set stats runs into the same problems at weapons: what about attached at-will/encounter/daily powers?
See above
KaynDarksbane wrote:
I don't know where to go from here, I'll likely keep the set power damage but go back to melee and come up with an alternative class ability that consumes the Monk's magical-item-use charges.
Damn you people and your contradictory replies that all make sense. DAMN YOU!!
But, seriously, you make a good point. Why should the Monk, driven by his own control of Ki, be dependent on an item? The only thing I can come up with atm is that he can change his Focus Implement during an extended rest...to something as simple as a rock if he wishes. I'm probably going to add "Focus Implement Templates" that can be applies to what ever implement you have chosen once every so many levels for free, and otherwise changed through a week-long Ritual or something. The Templates would be level dependent and
Does that sound better?
Personally, I like the idea.
And keep in mind that monks with implement based attacks are hitting stuff, just as wizards are casting spells. Its just that both are unlikely to hit without an implement, just as a fighter is unlikely to hit without a magic sword.
The shifting implement is not a bad idea, but again, if you've gotten your stuff taken away in 4e, you're pretty screwed no matter who you are unless the GM purposefully lowers the enemy levels/defenses to compensate.
Don't look at it as, "Oh no, I can't hit stuff without my beads!" look at it as, "I can hit stuff without my beads exactly as well as he can hit me without his wand"
You could make some "implements" tatoos or "seals" or whatever you want to call some kind of body art, that take a ritual or extended rest to change. Of course, then they couldn't be stolen, or knocked away or anything, but that would add some distinction to the class.
the point of implement here is that monk uses ki to dmg,and by that dmg of his powers are based on dice,instead of [W] which uses weapon statistic to do dmg,so monk weapons could be used as implements to give him additional bonuses just like wizards have with theirs, but that doesn't interfere with dmg of an attack which is described in powers.
suggestion, daily power (usable a number of times per day equal to 1/2 monk level) maybe not the best format, but i do not own the books, i still have 3.5, (this is of course an attempt to bring back quivering palm) how many bbegs have good fortitude saves?
utility/combat
Ki power Standard action Futae No Kiwami (mastery of two layers) Special:, you must be at least level 10 to take this power, it can also be used to shatter hard surfaces such as stone or steel plate
Hit Damage: D12+wis+str (if used against metal armor or similar material, (such as a rock or boulder it shatters) it is first a strike with the lower knuckles followed by the upper and ignores hardness) damage at 20th level 3d12+strx3+wisx3, fortitude save or be disentigrated (dc=damage dealt)
Attack Wis+Str Vs Ac
finally the monk gets a save or die ability (at least at 20th) as well as utilitarian goodness
I would like to start by saying that it is obvious you put a lot of time and effort into this and it is very well done. I do however have a few suggestions
First off I think you should cut down the skills available to the monk to make it more in line with other classes and instead of insight being required let them choose it off the list. My suggestions would be to have a skill list of : Acrobatics, Athletics, Endurance, Insight, Perception and Heal.
My reasoning is that first off it brings the number of skills available more in line with other strikers while offering options they don't necessarily have. I removed Religion because then they would only be one feat away from being a ritual caster instead of 2 which seems to me to be a significant advantage. I removed Intimidate as to me that didn't seem to be a good fit with the monk but YMMV. Nature you could put back in but it seems like trimming the skill list down to 6 made it more in line with other classes. However if you wanted to throw it back on as compensation for having less trained skills that would make sense to me.
Secondly Monk Mobility as a class feature seems really strong to me. It is the equivalent of getting a paragon tier feet (fleet-footed) at 1st level... that then gets even better at 21st level in essence it is 2 paragon tier feats for free. Not to mention that mobility is key to the game design and I think it may be a little unbalanced to allow that much extra mobility into the equation, as a free ability. If no ranged damage is allowed it may be more acceptable but I disagree with this feature. If you wanted to allow more movement you could perhaps do something similar to the rogue at-will that allows 2 move before the attack.
Ki Strike seems a little strong as it does not have a situational modifier attached to it. But perhaps that can be balanced out if you don't give any benefit for using it other than the damage.
My suggestion for Undeniable Strength is that any unarmed attack uses Strength for hit and damage. Adding the damage to Ki strike seems to be making that a little too unbalanced compared to other strikers damage. For Master of Body I would choose the defense bump and drop the extra hit points gained. Also as I believe someone stated make that bonus end at EoNT.
Unarmed Perfection is great I would just drop the 1/5 your level part and make it use implements with unarmed attacks. I am pretty sure that was already suggested though. I really like Unarmored mastery that if you wear no armor you get your Wisdom to AC, it should compensate for lack of enhancement bonus. While it is a little powerful at lower levels it balances out at higher levels to be equivalent. Perhaps this could be a feature for a paragon path?
The first 3 at-wills are really well done. I really like how they offer multiple defenses to target, decent effects without being too powerful and they are flavorful. Overall Great Job The last power however reads more like an encounter power to me than an at will. My recommendation would be to change it to Str vs Fort, Hit: 1W and target is knocked prone. My suggestion is that on the powers that have +damage perhaps make that +Con as it is the tertiary stat for your monks. Just a thought.
I have no specific criticism of the encounter powers but some of them just feel a little to powerful. The Dailies however feel a little underpowered maybe if you switched some of them?
Overall I would just like to say you did a really great job I really enjoyed reading this and look forward to seeing where you take the monk.
I'm trying to work on my own monk but I don't have the time right now. One thing I plan on doing before working on the encounter and dailies which I suggest you do if your having trouble coming up with some is make up a list of what each class gets at that level. How many abilities they have to choose from on average. What they do (buff/debuff) and how much damage they do. This way you can get a feel for the average powers that become available to each class at that level and can plan abilities of that same level for the monk accordingly. This is what I plan to do which I figure will take a while which is why I haven't gotten to doing it yet .
Also on the skills I don't really agree with vaille the list isn't to long. Though as a guide for mine I looked over at the 3.x guide and compared what skills would fit for the monk and as I recall there were 8 in total which were similar class skills in 3.x. Heal and Intimidate though were not class skills for the monk in 3.x though just so you know. So I plan to stay away from them in my build.
As for movement like vaille pointed out it kinda adds extra movement for free which I noticed several people do. Mean while the Rogue and Ranger both have abilities that allow them to move as part of the power. Well the monk was always way faster then the other classes in 3.x which I think should remain but here is an interest way I think to do it.
Fast Movement ~ Monk Feature
At-Will ~ Ki Minor Action Effect: Shift 1 space at 1st level, Shift 2 spaces at 6th level, Shift 3 spaces at 11th level, Shift 4 spaces at 16th level, Shift 5 spaces at 21st level, Shift 6 spaces at 25th level.
This way it cost you something and increases overtime much like the original monk's fast movement. Plus it allows more of a hit-run style of play that a lot of strikers seem to have with some of the encounter abilities. And some potential ways to slow down the monk is with minor sustains on some dailies that give a buff for remainder of combat. This way the extra movement comes at a compromise.
Ki Strike seems like a quick knockoff of the Rouge, Ranger, and Warlock's abilities. If 3 of 8 classes have that same ability it seems to kinda the same and doesn't make the monk feel unique. Though the fact that it cost a minor ties in nicely with the above Fast Movement as the player would have to choose move fast or do more damage .
Personally I don't know why people are against the unarmed is a weapon idea. After all this was the case in 3.x which allowed you to get many feats which improved the use of a single weapon type. While in 3.x these often didn't get used by monks as they had other feats but one that did see some action was the improved crit to allow more unarmed criting. Now in 4.0 there is a feat Weapon Focus which would be nice to get as a monk so why not have it as a weapon? After all it already is considered an improvised weapon in 4.0 PHB so it fits perfectly and it most likely what WOTC is going to do when they finally get around to monk. (PHB2 hopefully)
I'm also not to fond of the whole implement idea cause again I like to look at WOTC books as a guide to what a monk should be and not so much the tons of D20 books. And monks never had any kind of mystical item like the cleric's holy seal, which is the way I think many seem to be trying to push this. Because the monk was always about inner power and drawing the ki out himself because relying on a material possession to do this seems to go against them trying to reach a higher state of being and shed the physical world. Like at later levels when she can go ethereal or perfect self where she becomes a magical creature.
Also the implements seem to turn you into a close range caster since your damage is always fixed you can't switch out weapons like other melee classes and the monk could always use some other weapons. Personally I like the weapon way cause as an early monk in 3.x I would often use a weapon until my unarmed got high enough that it out did my staff.
I noticed people made comments about things that are now different so it seems your updating it as you go which means I don't know how it was before. :P
So far it looks like a good start. Some of the abilities are similar to what I had in mind. Though I am wondering why the 2nd attack on Furry is Wis based and at negative to hit?
EDIT: I figured I'd come back at add this. Just so you get an idea of what I was thinking with the unarmed as weapon idea.
This way the monks damage goes up over time much like in 3.x as well as fitting in nicely with a whole host of powers that are tired to weapon. Especially the starting at-will ones if you use [W] as their damage amount. You can add your own "fluff" to the description if you like it .
At-Will ~ Ki Minor Action Effect: Shift 1 space at 1st level, Shift 2 spaces at 6th level, Shift 3 spaces at 11th level, Shift 4 spaces at 16th level, Shift 5 spaces at 21st level, Shift 6 spaces at 25th level.
I think an at-will that lets you shift that much as a minor action is a bit crazy. I'd make it a move at-will or a minor encounter.
PyroMancer2k wrote:
Ki Strike seems like a quick knockoff of the Rouge, Ranger, and Warlock's abilities. If 3 of 8 classes have that same ability it seems to kinda the same and doesn't make the monk feel unique.
Thats because abilities like Curse/Quarry/Sneak Attack are how a striker becomes a striker. I can guaruntee you every single striker class will have an ability worded very similarly (i.e. Once per turn you do conditional extra damage that increases each tier). And again, 4th edition is not about mechanical uniqueness. You make something unique by describing them uniquely. The reason strikers work the way they do is mechanical balance.
PyroMancer2k wrote:
Personally I don't know why people are against the unarmed is a weapon idea. After all this was the case in 3.x which allowed you to get many feats which improved the use of a single weapon type. While in 3.x these often didn't get used by monks as they had other feats but one that did see some action was the improved crit to allow more unarmed criting. Now in 4.0 there is a feat Weapon Focus which would be nice to get as a monk so why not have it as a weapon? After all it already is considered an improvised weapon in 4.0 PHB so it fits perfectly and it most likely what WOTC is going to do when they finally get around to monk. (PHB2 hopefully)
My problem with the unarmed attack as a weapon is that, #1 it means you're inventing a weapon and need to keep it balanced with others so its an even choice on what to take. Did you notice that just about everyone gave unarmed a +3 proficiency modifier and a 1d6 base damage that increased later? Why is that? Is that really balanced? Do other weapons base damage increase later? No, they get higher values of X when their attacks do X[W] + Y modifier damage. Besides that, there is currently no way to balance wealth for a weapon based class that doesn't buy a weapon.
An Implement solves all of those problems and more.
PyroMancer2k wrote:
I'm also not to fond of the whole implement idea cause again I like to look at WOTC books as a guide to what a monk should be and not so much the tons of D20 books. And monks never had any kind of mystical item like the cleric's holy seal, which is the way I think many seem to be trying to push this. Because the monk was always about inner power and drawing the ki out himself because relying on a material possession to do this seems to go against them trying to reach a higher state of being and shed the physical world. Like at later levels when she can go ethereal or perfect self where she becomes a magical creature.
Also the implements seem to turn you into a close range caster since your damage is always fixed you can't switch out weapons like other melee classes and the monk could always use some other weapons. Personally I like the weapon way cause as an early monk in 3.x I would often use a weapon until my unarmed got high enough that it out did my staff.
Implements solve a lot of mechanical problems that you're not seeing/accepting.
Stop looking at implements as a mystical item. Stop looking at it as a fluff thing. Look at it the way its intended mechanically: 1) A money sink for classes that don't need magic weapons 2) A way to increase your ability to hit and damage with powers that are not based on a purchased weapon.
So, much like the Amulet of Mighty Fists or Necklace of Natural Attacks used to be, its a way to enchant your fists.
Here are additional ways the Implement makes more sense mechanically (I'm not concerned with Fluff as you can describe it any way you want).
1) First, let me clarify that an Implement based monk would still be able to fight (i.e. use his powers) without his implements. He'd just fight unarmed without an implement as effectively as a wizard casts spells without his orb/staff/wand.
2) If you use a weapon, the +2-3 proficiency bonuses to hit are generally intended to make up for the fact that AC is higher than the other defenses. Thats why weapon classes mostly attack AC, while Implement classes hit other stats (thats why Rogue's Piercing Strike is so awesome). With an implement, you can frequently attack other stats, which likely fits what a monk does better (Shouldn't stunning fist target Fort? A disorienting attack should hit Will. Obviously pressure point style attacks should hit Ref) rather than forcing most of the status attacks to hit AC due to the proficiency bonus.
3) Imagine the kind of weapons you'd offer monks to use other than unarmed attacks. Put them into three groups. #1 would include all the weapons that are better than unarmed strike you are proposing. #2 would include all the weapons that are weaker than the unarmed strike. #3 would include all the weapons that are statistically identical to the unarmed strike.
If there are weapons in group #1, you couldn't allow them or else there'd never be a reason to use the unarmed strike that is the core of your class.
If there are weapons in group #2, nobody would ever use them because your unarmed strike would be better. Why bother offering inferior options?
If there are weapons in group #3, then it doesn't actually matter if you use that weapon or the unarmed strike. Lets say the theoretical unarmed weapon is +3 prof., 1d6 damage (identical to a shortsword). Now, if you just set the monk power damages at Xd6 + Y modifier, it would be literally identical to using the short sword or unarmed strike and having an X[W] + Y modifier damage.
Here, if this is that big a deal, then have a wider range of implements. Offer stuff like belts/prayer beads/etc. (Maybe even tattoos?) But then also offer weapons as an implement, the way the pact blade works. That way, you could feel better about describing your attack as being a swing with the weapon, even though it doesn't have to be. It can be described as anything you want.
I think I addressed this earlier, though. I really thought it was earlier in this thread. Was it another one? There are several monk threads on different boards.
2) If you use a weapon, the +2-3 proficiency bonuses to hit are generally intended to make up for the fact that AC is higher than the other defenses.
Hmm, never thought about that before, but it works with my conception of Ki Power class design. Instead of granting the unarmed attack a proficiency bonus that works for any power, instead design the powers which target AC to include a flat bonus to the attack roll; like the Ranger's Careful Attack at-will power.
I also tend to agree on leaving the unarmed attack at the base 1d4, and deal with the increased damage at higher levels via powers with a higher X[W] damage.
Even though it's ki-based, I'd still use the X[W] damage for powers rather than a flat damage like magic spells. It allows one to use 'ki-based' weapons instead of the unarmed attack for a larger concept of 'martial artists' for the Ki power source. I'd design the powers with the implement keyword, and a special requirement that they could only be used with unarmed attacks and magic weapons with a ki-focus keyword (similar to the pact-blade as an arcane implement).
mplindustries went into a lot of detail with this last post, and I must say that it makes a lot of sense. If the monk is using his fists as a weapon, he needs to be hitting AC more than anything else. If, on the other hand, he uses an implement, he can hit the other defenses more. This latter choice seems to better fit the Monk.
As a striker, the monk needs some kind of basic extra damage. If you have another idea on how this could be accomplished, don't be afraid to post it!
So...I guess I'll be going back to implements! Oh well...
As a striker, the monk needs some kind of basic extra damage. If you have another idea on how this could be accomplished, don't be afraid to post it!
My ideas here got buried in the other thread, so I guess I'll post it over here. Here is the link, but I'm just going to quote the post in an sblock anyway.
Haven't the Devs talked about their plans for Monk? Didn't they say it was going to be a mobile striker with disabling abilities?
I imagine a monk with two-options: Power and mobility, or control and precision. I also see them as completely weaponless due to the Ki power source. And yes, I know all about the history of martial arts and how most if not all incorporate weapon techniques, but I think Ki weapon techniques can be left for the Defender. This vision for monk uses Implements for its attacks. Things like prayer beads, belts, a Gi maybe, I don't know. Monk stuff.
Obviously, they should have +1 to all defenses. Or maybe, I'd propose they should have +2 to all defenses (with an additional +1 at paragon and epic) in exchange for adding a caveat that Monk powers are unusable while wearing armor other than cloth. This gives them low AC for a primarily melee fighter, but their other defenses should be higher than normal to balance.
How about this for their "Striker feature" (like curse/quarry/etc.)Show
Focus
Monk class feature At-Will, Ki Minor, Personal Effect: Until the end of your turn, one skill check you make gains a +2 focus bonus or one damage roll you make gains a +1d6 focus bonus. Increase these bonuses to +4/+2d6 at 11th level, and +6/+3d6 at 21st. Since its a focus bonus, it would not stack if you used the ability more than once. Plus it opens the possibility for future utility powers with similar functions. Maybe one could give you +X AC or Resist X or things of that nature. Others could be like stances with sustain: minor.
At-will, Ki, Implement Standard, Melee Target: One or two creatures Attack: Dexterity vs. AC, two attacks Hit: 1d6 + Dexterity modifier damage. Increase the damage to 2d6 + Dexterity modifier at 21st level.
Pressure Point
At-will, Ki, Implement Standard, Melee Target: One creature Attack: Wisdom vs. Reflex Hit: 1d6 + Wisdom modifier damage. Increase the damage to 2d6 + Wisdom modifier at 21st level. Special: This power counts as a melee basic attack. Whenever you are able to use a melee basic attack, you may use Pressure Point.
Serpent Strike
At-will, Ki, Implement Standard, Melee Target: One creature Attack: Dexterity vs. Fortitude Hit: 1d6 + Dexterity modifier damage. If you have combat advantage, you slide the target 1 square. Increse the damage to 2d6 + Dexterity modifier at 21st level. Special: You may shift 1 square before or after delivering this attack.
I don't have a good name!
At-will, Ki, Implement Standard, Melee Target: One creature Attack: Wisdom vs. Fortitude Hit: 1d6 + Wisdom modifier damage. If you have combat advantage, you or one ally within 5 squares gains combat advantage over the target until the end of your next turn. Increase the damage to 2d6 + Wisdom modifier at 21st level. Now, Flurry of Blows I know looks overpowered next to Twin Strike, but consider that the base weapon damage is set, so larger weapons won't help, and, perhaps more importantly, it is an AC attack with no weapon proficiency bonus because it uses an Implement.
I'm a bit iffy on the last power. Its name, obviously, does not exist, but I'm nervous about Combat advantage. I initially intended it as the defense crushing version of Enfeebling Strike (-2 to defenses), but then realized it effectively gave +2 to hit that stacked with everything and probably wasn't as balanced. So, rather than letting it stack with Combat Advantage, I feel like granting it to just one ally is safer/more balanced. So yes, you could keep spamming it to get perma +2 or use Serpent to move them around, or your Rogue buddy can keep doing sneak attack damage, but its better than the whole team hitting them. I don't know, it might need reworking, but I like the other 3.
As for encounter and daily powers, this is where video-game/anime stuff could come in (if you insist). Since its an implement class and not necessarily an unarmed class, its easier to create ranged attacks. Plus, while its assumed you're throwing punches/kicks/elbows/knees/etc., you certainly don't have to the way I wrote it. You could use prayer slips or an image of yourself striking them superimposed over top of your otherwise serene self, or whatever else you want.
You could even hold weapons and say its coming from them. Perhaps a paragon or epic feat that lets you replace the 1d6s with [W]s or one that replaces the keyword "Implement" with the keyword "Weapon" for all powers with a range of "melee."
Keep in mind this was just a rough sketch of ideas that I did a few days ago, so yeah, not refined at all.
Thanks again mplindustries. I'll take a more in-depth look a bit later. I did have Flurry of Blows against Ref, but you're absolutely right in that it would be OP compared to the Ranger equivalent. Making it an attack against AC would likely even it out. Great ideas! Keep em coming!
The monk has always been insainly fast compared to other classes. At 20 he could move (+60 ft)12 more spaces and at 30 he could move (+90 ft)18 more spaces then other classes. So far from the classes that have come out it seems they use some of the same abilities/feat names from 3.x and slightly tweak them to fit into 4.0 much like fighter's cleave. Well I figured try to preserve the monks abilities from 3.x and find a way to fit them into a 4.0 mechanics. And The fast movement does that. While it may seem a "bit crazy" as you put it at first it's not really that over powered when you think about. At level one it's one space for a minor action and slowly goes up over time. Sure it's a lot at higher levels but at that point your doing some pretty epic things. Also if monk is striker then like other strikers he has the at-will minor dmg add ability with some condition that they all have so he won't be able to move that quickly all the time like a flat free movement would do.
Now I do agree with you that I'm not to fond of the whole just give the monk extra movement for free idea. Also I do agree the tendency everyone seems to have to make the monk hit anything but AC is a bit off. I don't think however a + prof bonus to unarmed is unreasonable since everyone else gets a prof bonus to their weapon. +2 seems to be the most common among wpns so I think that is probably the best though everyone seems to like to put +3 probably cause that's what the best weapons have. And the no prof bonus but + bonuses in side abilities that target AC as suggested by Tygaran doesn't really fit to much either since most abilities of melee classes target AC. If it's a strong effect and it seems it should hit one of the other defenses they could add a simple Second Hit roll/effect which then targets the fort/reflex/will.
As for the monk's unarmed getting stronger as he levels up while other weapons don't? Again I try to use what's already established as my base. And 3.x set this precedent with the monk as his unarmed damage increased every 4 levels starting at 1D6 till it was 2D10 at level 20. So my suggestion for unarmed combat actually keeps pace with 3.x though you fall a bit behind. Because in 3.x you got 1d10 at 8 instead of at 11 in 4.0 like suggested and keep increasing until you hit 2D10 at 20 which is not until 21 in 4th also when basic attacks for everyone increase to 2[W]. In 3.x the monk's unarmed never increased after 20 so again it fits. The only difference is now thanks to 4.0 the other classes do 2[W] at 21st level also so that 1D10 won't be so far ahead like in 3.x where your lvl 20 monk hits for 2D10 while fighter hits with 1D10 Greatsword that only improves through magic. The monk was always a bit of a striker with that dmg boost except unlike rogue he couldn't do it all at once but didn't have to sneak up. Monk's strikerness in 3.x seem to be that he did more damage on average especially with things like Flurry of blows instead of one special big hit. And I wouldn't be surprised if WOTC did something similar when they release monk.
Here is my reasoning: If you just use X[W] as you base in later abilities to boost this more then when a monk picks up a stronger weapon then his unarmed he will do way more damage so it might not scale as well. As for the who if a monk's unarmed is strong/weaker the a weapon argument your forgetting this is a role playing game it's about choices on how to make your char. Not all gamers are MIN/MAXers in fact I've been in a few groups where they frown on that if it doesn't fit your char. And even in 3.x where you could get higher unarmed I've seen a few monks go the magic staff wielding route for the roleplaying factor.
Also if your concerned with some abilities being "abused" with larger weapons simply add "Requirement: Unarmed or wielding Monk weapon" which are not just the weapons he's prof at but make a list in the class feature section. The ranger has something like this all over his abilities with the "Requirement: You must be wielding two melee weapons or a ranged weapon." that shows up a lot. And for ones you want only unarmed simply put "Req: Unarmed" and there problem solved. You can always be sure they will have the set unarmed damage and not use big weapons to throw off the power. As for well then if only unarmed works why not set a flat amount instead of [W] since it will remain the same? Well that's the point it won't remain the same it'll increase over time like 3.x and this way they can't slip in other weapons for those powers. The whole system ties together to limit what they can do while at the same time allowing for expansion of the power without having a ton of "increase damage" comments all over the place.
Although I suppose if you were really "crazy" you could do a direct copy of the 3.x Unarmed damage table. Combine with with things like the "Req: Unarmed or Monk Weapon" like that way at 21 you would have 2D10 as your unarmed while basic attacks do 2[W] for a total of 4D10 . Now while I'm NOT suggesting this at all. I'm mearly pointing out it would be interesting if not a bit crazy but also could be the source of the monks extra striker damage.
As for the cash issue 3.x had gloves and there are already a setup for hand slot in 4.0 with a few gloves and gauntlets. My advice is in addition to monk class simply make up a chart for misc effects you can enchant gloves with that give you an attack bonus. This way you can get magic gloves like in 3.x. This solves the cash problem which reducing the need for some focus implementation.
First a general response to your comments: this is not 3.x anymore, and while you may want to, you can't copy those abilities faithfully all the time.
PyroMancer2k wrote:
mplindustries:
The monk has always been insainly fast compared to other classes. At 20 he could move (+60 ft)12 more spaces and at 30 he could move (+90 ft)18 more spaces then other classes. So far from the classes that have come out it seems they use some of the same abilities/feat names from 3.x and slightly tweak them to fit into 4.0 much like fighter's cleave. Well I figured try to preserve the monks abilities from 3.x and find a way to fit them into a 4.0 mechanics. And The fast movement does that. While it may seem a "bit crazy" as you put it at first it's not really that over powered when you think about. At level one it's one space for a minor action and slowly goes up over time. Sure it's a lot at higher levels but at that point your doing some pretty epic things. Also if monk is striker then like other strikers he has the at-will minor dmg add ability with some condition that they all have so he won't be able to move that quickly all the time like a flat free movement would do.
Some things in 4th edition scale with level and tier. Hit points are the most obvious. Notice how most things that heal HP scales up with level? Damage is another, to compensate for the HP increase. Basic attacks all become 2[W] (+ Mod) for example. Critical hits increase as well. Did you notice how other things, however, don't? Things like speed?
Here's my opinion on how fast movement could work (pick your poison), but don't expect it to mimic 3.X mechanically. It can only mimic its intent:
Option 1: +1 flat bonus to speed Option 2: An encounter power that lets you shift your speed as a minor action. Option 3: A daily power that increases your speed by your (Choose one: Dex, Wis) modifier until the end of the encounter. Option 4: An at will power that lets you teleport 1 as a minor action (so you can never totally immobilize a monk. You are free to describe it as a regular type move, though. Or leave it a teleport in description as well, because they have the Ki power source, so they aren't just limited to "normal" abilities.).
Trust me, any of those powers will still make you feel a lot faster and more maneuverable than almost any other character.
PyroMancer2k wrote:
Now I do agree with you that I'm not to fond of the whole just give the monk extra movement for free idea. Also I do agree the tendency everyone seems to have to make the monk hit anything but AC is a bit off. I don't think however a + prof bonus to unarmed is unreasonable since everyone else gets a prof bonus to their weapon. +2 seems to be the most common among wpns so I think that is probably the best though everyone seems to like to put +3 probably cause that's what the best weapons have. And the no prof bonus but + bonuses in side abilities that target AC as suggested by Tygaran doesn't really fit to much either since most abilities of melee classes target AC. If it's a strong effect and it seems it should hit one of the other defenses they could add a simple Second Hit roll/effect which then targets the fort/reflex/will.
My point about the proficiency bonus is: If you make the unarmed attack into a weapon and give it a prof bonus, you have to make most of their attacks target AC. If you let the monk be an implement class, you can freely target other defenses and stay balanced. You are also then reminded that the Monk is not a martial class. Its power source is Ki. Its some kind of "magic" stuff. It IS eastern mysticism (crap).
PyroMancer2k wrote:
As for the monk's unarmed getting stronger as he levels up while other weapons don't? Again I try to use what's already established as my base. And 3.x set this precedent with the monk as his unarmed damage increased every 4 levels starting at 1D6 till it was 2D10 at level 20. So my suggestion for unarmed combat actually keeps pace with 3.x though you fall a bit behind. Because in 3.x you got 1d10 at 8 instead of at 11 in 4.0 like suggested and keep increasing until you hit 2D10 at 20 which is not until 21 in 4th also when basic attacks for everyone increase to 2[W]. In 3.x the monk's unarmed never increased after 20 so again it fits. The only difference is now thanks to 4.0 the other classes do 2[W] at 21st level also so that 1D10 won't be so far ahead like in 3.x where your lvl 20 monk hits for 2D10 while fighter hits with 1D10 Greatsword that only improves through magic. The monk was always a bit of a striker with that dmg boost except unlike rogue he couldn't do it all at once but didn't have to sneak up. Monk's strikerness in 3.x seem to be that he did more damage on average especially with things like Flurry of blows instead of one special big hit. And I wouldn't be surprised if WOTC did something similar when they release monk.
You can't and shouldn't try to keep pace with 3.X. In 3.X, two handed weapons were actually good. In 3.X, non-caster classes were generally useless. In 3.X lots of stuff happened that just isn't in 4e. All damage is significantly lower in 4e. All of it.
My arguments against the scaling weapon base damage stands. There is absolutely no reason to scale a monk's base damage up. Consider this: why would you make it go up to 2d6 damage at level 13 (just an example, not anything you actually said), instead of just making his 13+ powers have double the number of [W]s? I mean, whats the difference of a 2d10 base damage at 30 and an attack that deals 2[W] vs. a 1d6 base damage at 30 with an attack that deals 6[W] (Just so you know, the average 22 and 21 respectively)?
Every other class scales the special attacks damage, not the base damage. Why should monk be different? All you're doing is begging said monk to multiclass to get a Cleric/Fighter/Paladin/Ranger/Rogue attack with a 6-7[W] damage power. Additionally, you're either A) Making non-monk classes virtually unable to multiclass into Monk becuase their later powers will have not enough [W]s and no way to scale their unarmed damage to make it worth it or B) Making non-monk melee classes always multiclass into monk so they can scale their damage up and use their own 6-7[W] attacks with a 2d10 base, which of course means that at the high end of the game, every melee fighter will be unarmed. That makes sense I guess
And if you're thinking, "They're a striker. They're supposed to do lots of damage with their attacks," let me tell you, when you actually play 4e, you'll realize how much damage has been reduced. 12-14d10 is completely insane. Thats 66-77 average before you include other bonuses. No way, thats the kind of damage strikers tend to get on crits in the upper end, not average rolls.
PyroMancer2k wrote:
Here is my reasoning: If you just use X[W] as you base in later abilities to boost this more then when a monk picks up a stronger weapon then his unarmed he will do way more damage so it might not scale as well. As for the who if a monk's unarmed is strong/weaker the a weapon argument your forgetting this is a role playing game it's about choices on how to make your char. Not all gamers are MIN/MAXers in fact I've been in a few groups where they frown on that if it doesn't fit your char. And even in 3.x where you could get higher unarmed I've seen a few monks go the magic staff wielding route for the roleplaying factor.
I am not forgetting this is a roleplaying game, I am remembering that this is a roleplaying game. You are proposing that we should offer weaker weapons to the monk so that a roleplayer can be punished for wanting to roleplay a monk that wields a particular weapon. Why would I want to punish that roleplayer? With Implements, as I've said before, you can "use" any weapon you want. Want to describe your Implement based melee range attack as a slash with a hook sword? Do it. Want to describe it as a punch to the solar plexus? Also ok. Want to describe it as a short burst of ki energy while you scream some japanese crap and the background behind your face starts to zoom by so it looks like your moving really fast, you can do that, too.
It doesn't matter how you roleplay it. A player shouldn't be punished mechanically for a fluff choice. My Implement system actually frees them from having to choose a good weapon in order to keep pace with other people in the party who are more concerned with melting faces, because the class and its powers scale the damage evenly.
PyroMancer2k wrote:
Also if your concerned with some abilities being "abused" with larger weapons simply add "Requirement: Unarmed or wielding Monk weapon" which are not just the weapons he's prof at but make a list in the class feature section. The ranger has something like this all over his abilities with the "Requirement: You must be wielding two melee weapons or a ranged weapon." that shows up a lot. And for ones you want only unarmed simply put "Req: Unarmed" and there problem solved. You can always be sure they will have the set unarmed damage and not use big weapons to throw off the power. As for well then if only unarmed works why not set a flat amount instead of [W] since it will remain the same? Well that's the point it won't remain the same it'll increase over time like 3.x and this way they can't slip in other weapons for those powers. The whole system ties together to limit what they can do while at the same time allowing for expansion of the power without having a ton of "increase damage" comments all over the place.
I have no interest in limiting choice in anyway, and I've explained why scaling base unarmed damage is a Bad Idea.
PyroMancer2k wrote:
Although I suppose if you were really "crazy" you could do a direct copy of the 3.x Unarmed damage table. Combine with with things like the "Req: Unarmed or Monk Weapon" like that way at 21 you would have 2D10 as your unarmed while basic attacks do 2[W] for a total of 4D10 . Now while I'm NOT suggesting this at all. I'm mearly pointing out it would be interesting if not a bit crazy but also could be the source of the monks extra striker damage.
No, I explained this, too. 3.X damage is vastly higher than 4e damage, almost across the board (maybe not at level 1, but shortly thereafter, definitely).
PyroMancer2k wrote:
As for the cash issue 3.x had gloves and there are already a setup for hand slot in 4.0 with a few gloves and gauntlets. My advice is in addition to monk class simply make up a chart for misc effects you can enchant gloves with that give you an attack bonus. This way you can get magic gloves like in 3.x. This solves the cash problem which reducing the need for some focus implementation.
3.X had no such gloves. I believe neverwinter nights and DDO, however, did, so I can see possible sources for your confusion.
In 3.X, your choice was a Necklace of Natural Attacks or (in core only) an Amulet of Mighty Fists. Hmm, yeah, I guess thats not an Implement
I'm sorry, but the only real argument for giving 4e monks an actual unarmed weapon, let alone a scaling base damage unarmed weapon, is "This is how it was done before." If thats your reasoning, I suggest you take another look at this new system. There is very little thats the same anymore.
Some things in 4th edition scale with level and tier. Hit points are the most obvious. Notice how most things that heal HP scales up with level? Damage is another, to compensate for the HP increase. Basic attacks all become 2[W] (+ Mod) for example. Critical hits increase as well. Did you notice how other things, however, don't? Things like speed?
Well yea speed only scaled for the monk in 3.x. So of course they don't have speed increasing with level for any other class there are only 8 basic classes so far and none of them got speed increases in 3.x what they started with is what they had at lvl 30. And I know it's not 3.x but I was trying to make it achieve the same intent. You'll notice several people have suggested a flat + speed ability to the monk which would be a true straight xfer from 3.x which I agree didn't fit. But the problem with and Encounter power that does that is it's not often enough since encounters may last like 6-7 rounds now.
Ranger: 2 lvl1 Encounters, 1 lvl2 utility, 2 lvl5 dailies, 1 lvl6 util, 1 lvl9 enc, 1 lvl 10 util. That all allow extra move or shift as part of some other action which means they basically free extra movement and they are a lot more generous with it. "You can shift a number of squares equal to 1 + your Wisdom modifier either before or after the attack." I won't mention what ability this is part of but it's just an example as part of standard action which attack it takes on and extra 1 + wis at first level. There is also a utility at lvl 10 which increases your speed and shift rate. The other reason for the fast move suggestion is I want the class to seem unique and not just same powers with different names as the other class. That's why I'm trying to come up with an idea to get that extra movement in without just copying what the ranger has already done.
Course synergy is part of what makes up a whole class and some of my other ideas tend to use up minors so you won't always have that extra minor. Like stunning first as an at-will minor that is used to add on to an attack made unarmed. It would be similar to the Pally Lay on hands in 4.0 one use per round limited times per day though.
mplindustries wrote:
You are proposing that we should offer weaker weapons to the monk so that a roleplayer can be punished for wanting to roleplay a monk that wields a particular weapon. Why would I want to punish that roleplayer?
I think you missed the point. You originally said:
mplindustries wrote:
3) Imagine the kind of weapons you'd offer monks to use other than unarmed attacks. Put them into three groups. #1 would include all the weapons that are better than unarmed strike you are proposing. #2 would include all the weapons that are weaker than the unarmed strike. #3 would include all the weapons that are statistically identical to the unarmed strike.
What you were saying sounded basically like if we tie it to weapons then monks will ignore all that are weaker then unarmed and if they are stronger then unarmed they will use them instead. But my point about RPing was NOT that we should punish the people for making poor choices after all it's their choice to make. But rather it gives them the option. Let's use the fighter as an example you could have a silly player who wants to play a mental off fighter that likes to stab things with his dagger. So instead of running around with a big weapon that does 1d8-1d10 like most fighters would he runs around with a 1d4 weapon. Well that's fine it's his choice. But what I'm saying is if you don't tie the abilities to weapons then the player has no choice. Their abilities will be like a caster set in stone with implements as booster. So they can't use their staff, spear, sling, or etc. unless it's a basic attack.
As for the 3.x comparisons to 4.0 yes I know a lot has changed and I only really use it as a general guideline. Like say ACs. The Fighter was at the top while wizard was at the lowers. Now see about where along that spread each lies then compare that to where along the spread they lie in 4.0 and use that as a base line to figure out where the monk should fall.
And the comment about the monk having 2D10 base unarmed then put into a 2[W] power I said at the start of that it would be "CRAZY" and right before the end I made the comment I was NOT suggesting it. As in the whole thing was a bit of sarcasm on how over power some suggestions could get. But you seem to miss that as you commented on how you had previously explained 3.x dmg amounts are higher then in 4.0.
Well yea speed only scaled for the monk in 3.x. So of course they don't have speed increasing with level for any other class there are only 8 basic classes so far and none of them got speed increases in 3.x what they started with is what they had at lvl 30. And I know it's not 3.x but I was trying to make it achieve the same intent. You'll notice several people have suggested a flat + speed ability to the monk which would be a true straight xfer from 3.x which I agree didn't fit. But the problem with and Encounter power that does that is it's not often enough since encounters may last like 6-7 rounds now.
The power you're proposing (Shift X squares at will as a minor action) is only different from a flat speed boost in two ways:
1) You're relying on other possible minor action powers to prevent the speed. Sometimes. I guess. 2) You're letting the monk completely avoid OAs over large distances with a minor action.
If you made it: "Move X squares at will as a minor action" instead of shift, I'd be completely fine with it. Its the shifting + minor action + large distance that causes my problems.
PyroMancer2k wrote:
Ranger: 2 lvl1 Encounters, 1 lvl2 utility, 2 lvl5 dailies, 1 lvl6 util, 1 lvl9 enc, 1 lvl 10 util. That all allow extra move or shift as part of some other action which means they basically free extra movement and they are a lot more generous with it. "You can shift a number of squares equal to 1 + your Wisdom modifier either before or after the attack." I won't mention what ability this is part of but it's just an example as part of standard action which attack it takes on and extra 1 + wis at first level. There is also a utility at lvl 10 which increases your speed and shift rate. The other reason for the fast move suggestion is I want the class to seem unique and not just same powers with different names as the other class. That's why I'm trying to come up with an idea to get that extra movement in without just copying what the ranger has already done.
So why can't the Monk powers do that too? Why not have a monk at will that lets you shift as well? An encounter that lets you shift a number of squares equal to 1 + secondary stat before or after? If you envy the ranger's mobility, make monk powers have similar mobility.
And no class is going to seem unique. There are 4 roles now. The rest is window dressing.
PyroMancer2k wrote:
Course synergy is part of what makes up a whole class and some of my other ideas tend to use up minors so you won't always have that extra minor. Like stunning first as an at-will minor that is used to add on to an attack made unarmed. It would be similar to the Pally Lay on hands in 4.0 one use per round limited times per day though.
Stunning fist as an at-will minor makes no sense at all. Thats just a mimic of 3.5. Stunning Fist as an encounter power around level 7 (with low damage) or 13 (with average damage), though, does make sense.
Less class features, more powers.
PyroMancer2k wrote:
I think you missed the point. You originally said:
What you were saying sounded basically like if we tie it to weapons then monks will ignore all that are weaker then unarmed and if they are stronger then unarmed they will use them instead. But my point about RPing was NOT that we should punish the people for making poor choices after all it's their choice to make. But rather it gives them the option. Let's use the fighter as an example you could have a silly player who wants to play a mental off fighter that likes to stab things with his dagger. So instead of running around with a big weapon that does 1d8-1d10 like most fighters would he runs around with a 1d4 weapon. Well that's fine it's his choice. But what I'm saying is if you don't tie the abilities to weapons then the player has no choice. Their abilities will be like a caster set in stone with implements as booster. So they can't use their staff, spear, sling, or etc. unless it's a basic attack.
Actually, you missed the point again.
#1, Real people min/max weapon choice. No soldier in medieval times used flint spears because "they had more style." Nobody in the army uses a musket because of a personal choice. If you fight for a living, you pick the best you can get, or you die.
#2, Lets say some monk wants to use a dagger because he wants to practice Kali or Silat. Said monk, who is roleplaying, would be penalized for using a dagger over a 1d6 unarmed strike. Why should he be penalized for roleplaying accuracy?
#3, Yes, their abilities will be set in stone. Because that way, all their weapons will do equal damage and be equally good. You could play a drunken master and hit people with chairs and bottles and it will do the same damage as a monk who wanted to play a spear fighting shaolin style. You are roleplaying only one layer deep. You have stuck in your mind the idea, "If I don't deal my weapon's damage, I'm not attacking with my weapon." However, nothing at all stops you from describing your attack (which has set damage) as a weapon attack. Lets say you have an attack, one that I proposed, called Pressure Point. It does 1d6 + Wis damage. Now, when I use that power, why can't I say, "I use pressure point, sending the butt of my staff into the bridge of his nose" or "I use pressure point, ducking beneath his swing and pinching a nerve on his spine" or "I use pressure point, stabbing by dagger into the soft part of his armor near his armpit." All of those descriptions would still deal 1d6 + Wis damage, because they're powered by Ki, not martial power.
And nothing I ever suggested prevented weapons from being implements. I only suggested prayer beads/prayer slips/belts/etc for unarmed implements.
PyroMancer2k wrote:
As for the 3.x comparisons to 4.0 yes I know a lot has changed and I only really use it as a general guideline. Like say ACs. The Fighter was at the top while wizard was at the lowers. Now see about where along that spread each lies then compare that to where along the spread they lie in 4.0 and use that as a base line to figure out where the monk should fall.
Well in 3.x, my current sorcerer is level 13 with a 45 AC, while the party's fighter finally got his AC above 25 when he found some better armor. Likewise, I've played monks with ACs well into the 50s, but I've seen other people play monks poorly and have less than 30. You can't compare, because 4e flipped the game's AC upside down, back to where it was always intended to be.
PyroMancer2k wrote:
And the comment about the monk having 2D10 base unarmed then put into a 2[W] power I said at the start of that it would be "CRAZY" and right before the end I made the comment I was NOT suggesting it. As in the whole thing was a bit of sarcasm on how over power some suggestions could get. But you seem to miss that as you commented on how you had previously explained 3.x dmg amounts are higher then in 4.0.
Whether you intended 2d10 or not, it doesn't make my points about not scaling damage up any less valid.
1) You're relying on other possible minor action powers to prevent the speed. Sometimes. I guess. 2) You're letting the monk completely avoid OAs over large distances with a minor action.
Well yea the minor action means it won't always come into play. Also if the monk is going to be a striker like the others which use a minor to boost their dmg for that turn. Which does seem similar but I suppose it's doable. I know it's not perfect but I think it's better then just flat speed increase. Well again using the ranger as a bit of a reference his extra move from abilities are shifts which are tied to large distances. And while I know it's not 3.x they don't seem to have a rule to use tumble to avoid OAs. This was one of the mechanics in 3.x that allowed the monk to freely move around field without provoking OAs.
mplindustries wrote:
And no class is going to seem unique. There are 4 roles now. The rest is window dressing.
Well yea that's true to a point. But even among the 8 already they are kinda unique in the same roles. Take other strikers the rouge does more damage with his sneak attack then the others but he has to catch them off guard and a lot of his abilities are tied to the whole stealth and move idea. Then the ranger has a lot of two weapon attacking or range and his hunters quarry at target a new creature each round combined with a little some movement thrown in. Mean while the warlock has his curse which not only does the damage but gives bonuses when enemies affected die. Plus several of his abilities are tied to which pact you pick to give a bonus. When I saw unique I mean does kinda the same thing (lots of dmg, take hits in front line, buff/heal others, or deal damage over area) like each role does but they do it slightly different which makes them unique.
mplindustries wrote:
Stunning fist as an at-will minor makes no sense at all. Thats just a mimic of 3.5. Stunning Fist as an encounter power around level 7 (with low damage) or 13 (with average damage), though, does make sense.
Less class features, more powers.
Well several classes have a few features and thus far I haven't suggested an over abundance. I know that there are a lot of powers that need to be filled up also. I was just trying to include the typical starting abilities of a monk into the base class. Anything the monk gets at later levels like deflect arrows, abundant step, quivering palm, and etc as powers.
Not sure if the original poster noticed the article on converting 3.5 characters to 4e and they talk about Monk using Ranger class ability with some tweaking. Hope this helps.
Not sure if the original poster noticed the article on converting 3.5 characters to 4e and they talk about Monk using Ranger class ability with some tweaking. Hope this helps.
That would of been kinda hard considering this thread started before that article was published. And the article it self admits it's just a ruff estimate that doesn't completely capture the monks feel.
Besides it's fun to speculate on ideas for a class.
That would of been kinda hard considering this thread started before that article was published. And the article it self admits it's just a ruff estimate that doesn't completely capture the monks feel.
Besides it's fun to speculate on ideas for a class.
I figured the post started some time again. Just thought that this article might help flush out some things since it was created by Wotc.
Some of the Ranger's powers fit well for a monk based (two wpn fighting) character. Also they mention about making the unarmed attack d8 (unarmed damage has been a talked about as a problem for this build in earlier posts).
I have been looking forward to playing a Monk for a long time and this class may seal the deal. Keep up the good work.
Some of the Ranger's powers fit well for a monk based (two wpn fighting) character. Also they mention about making the unarmed attack d8 (unarmed damage has been a talked about as a problem for this build in earlier posts).
Well after examining the other two me melee striker classes to see how the +3 1D8 recommendation stood up I noticed both classes could get and used a weapon of similar standings. Rogue uses rapier to keep sneak attack available and ranger uses long swords.
And the more I think about it scaling dmg on an unarmed combat scale ends up running into problems as it's low at first but to high later. Also the 1D6 that a lot of people were originally suggesting just seems to low given I've had more time to read the books. That combined with the way WOTC seem to want to simplify things this time around a set unarmed dmg my be the way their going.
That class so does not have the ki power source, if said power source will even exist. All its powers are basically "I beat you up real good" = martial.
That class so does not have the ki power source, if said power source will even exist. All its powers are basically "I beat you up real good" = martial.
Actually WOTC has already said monks will draw on Ki. Check PHB 4.0 page 54. I'm not going to copy the whole thing but here is short and to the point. "monks harness the power of their soul energy (or ki)" The rest of it talks about the other sources and the classes that draw on them. Further details will be in future books it says. I suppose they could change their mind down the road but so far it doesn't get more official then that.
The last power however reads more like an encounter power to me than an at will. My recommendation would be to change it to Str vs Fort, Hit: 1W and target is knocked prone. My suggestion is that on the powers that have +damage perhaps make that +Con as it is the tertiary stat for your monks. Just a thought.
