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5 years ago ::
Aug 17, 2008 - 4:15PM
#141
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Date Joined:
Jun 16, 2008
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This thread is awesome, but the xia is more awesome! Gooooood job!!! :D
(sorry for the unproductive post, but you deserv honor, man!)
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5 years ago ::
Aug 17, 2008 - 4:31PM
#142
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The pdf linked by Lugritor is missing the section title of the second class build (Spiritual Seeker). Other than that the pdf looks nicely organized and put together.
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5 years ago ::
Aug 19, 2008 - 4:49AM
#143
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Date Joined:
Jul 11, 2008
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After reading through the entire class...well, I was blown away. I'm very skeptical when it comes to homebrew but the Wulin is really a phenominal piece of work. That said, having some spare time on my hands, I went through all the powers and critqued a few - as well as wrote down some overall thoughts to them. Hopefully my opinion is useful as you continue to polish the class! HEROIC POWERSSpoiler:
Show
At-Will Powers
- Gentle BLow: Good at-will; I see nothing wrong with it. Almost begs to be vs Reflex but it's fine as is.
- Mantis Grip: Excellent for grapplers - well implemented for the strong style.
- Pendulum Strike: Seems strange - a good power, but perhaps a little situational for my tastes. Unlike Cleave or Greeflame Blade it's very limited in the targets it can pick.
- Serpent's Lunge: Good power for the strong style.
1st Level Encounter Powers
- Disdainful Kick: a bit weak compared to Inevtiable Blow. It's incredibly flavourful and I love it - but Prone is a condition you want your enemies to be in! I'd make it Str +2 vs AC personally.
- Inevitable Blow: Good power - does what it's suposed to do.
- Rolling Wave: Great as is.
- Wind Stealing Strike: Also great. I'd be hard pushed to choose between Wind Stealing and Rolling Wave.
1st Level Daily Powers
- Flurried Fists: The only suggestion I can make it let this be usable wiht weapons too. Goods stuff regardless.
- Ghost Cat's Robbery: Interesting Power. Stealing enemy healing surges seems balanced but I can't commont too much.
- Skin Shattering Blow: Nice power - all is good.
- Solment Touch: Very interesting power. The two attacks make it balanced. I'm torn between this and flurry for favorites.
2nd Level Utility Powers
- Catch Arrows: Situational, but damn if I wouldn't love to nick the rogue's magic dagger if he tossed it my way.
- Find the Flaw: I'd make this an At-Will - so it replaces Str for Wis on burst/break checks. Very martial art-y.
- Ground Fighting: Grappling specialist utility. All is good.
- Slow Fall: Had to be included - good implementation.
3rd Level Encounter Powers
- Cyclone Sweep: Almost begs to be Str or Wis vs AC. Nice power otherwise.
- Lashing Flurry: Cyclone Sweep is the better encounter I believe but the fact you only need one attack roll makes it different.
- Ogre Slam: Good power and well made.
- Shoulder Nerve Strike: I do like the Throws vs Pressure Point attacks the Str/Wis styles do. Another good power.
5th Level Daily Powers
- Blazing Fury: I like it. Very good against minions and tough enemies that require time to kill. Should this maybe be a stance?
- Eye of the Hurricane: Usable...but complicated. I'm not sure but is there a way the wording can be made more clear/concise?
- Sickening Touch: Seems good. I much prefer Blazing Fury but it's usable.
- Willow Staff: Out of the blue. I don't like it - to have a random, weapon specific power sitting there like that. It's good but the requirement is a no-no imo. You could easily imagine the same with unarmed attacks - or even swords (the bendy ones) and the weighted chain. If you remove th staff/polearm specific bit it'll be golden in my eyes. YMMV
6th Level Utility Powers
- Bamboo Serentiy: Can't argue with regen. Potentially a life saving utility.
- Disciplined Mind: Not sure about the religion pre-req but it's a minor thing. I don't like that you have to use it before you know if you've been hit though - that's a bit of a crap shoot.
- Dragonfly Landing: This will get taken eventually (needed for the flight stuff) and on its own, it's a good power for what it does.
- Fleeing Gekco Climb: Good for what it does. Wording may be a bit off though - compare to the Warlock's spider climb utility?
- Monkey's Ruse: Nice power and an interesting effect.
7th Level Encounter Powers
- Avalanche Cascade: Concept is good but I'm not sure about the execution - the second attack roll means it's unlikey to get its full effect.
- Disruptive Jab: I like it. Good if you've got people like a wizard in the party.
- Driving Thrust: I'd say it's superior to Avalanche Cascade for the most part even though they fill similar roles.
- Wrist Catch: Nice power. I like it.
9th Level Daily Powers
- Deafening Shout: Very nice - reminds me of Kung Fu Hustle specifically.
- Drunkard's Dance: Good power - the rogue will love you. Though why an immediate reaction? Probably to make it only once per turn but I'm curious.
- Storm Soul: A bit boring in my opinion. Contrast with the fighter and paladin level 9s which do comparable damage but have a status effect. It might also work better as a Str or Wis vs AC attack.
10th Level Utilities
- Guiding Wave: Great power. The only trick will be making enemies flank you (which they should want you to anyway). If Drunkard's Dance makes you the Rogue's best friend this makes you their worst enemy.
- Iron Belly: OK but I don't like it. Wulin are more defensive than fighter's but Iron Belly is strictly worse than Unbreakable. The latter is usuable against any attack and, while it doesn't prevent as much damage right away, is encounter instead of daily. I'd think hard about turning Iron Belly into an encounter as well.
- Ogre Pinning Stance: Yay for grapple powers. Alas, being a Daily means you can't take two Ogre fights in a row...
- Phenoix Ascendant: Flyers are the bane of melee characters? This power disagrees.
13th Level Encounters
- Binding Grip: Good grapple power.
- A sudden size restriction appears on this power not on many of the other Wis-based trip ones. Is that intentional or an oversight?
- Numbing Strike: Solid encounter power.
- Wind Slash: Yay for air render. Can't argue with wind slashes.
15th Level Daily
- Monkey's Leaping Charge: weird attack; it personally seems too situational and the damage is too minor for it to be very useful.
- Scoop and Smash: I love it. Nothing better than breaking bar stools over people's heads.
- Spinal Feedback: Good power - seems great to me.
- Tsunami Splitting Strike: situational but a good power...perhaps not very suited for a Daily though. I'm not sure.
16th Level Utilities
- Cloud Leap: Most excellent power and the very definition of wuxia. Props to it.
- Improved Evasion: Interesting way of getting evasion back into the game - though I'm not sure how good it is.
- Scorn the Blaze: Wrestling pit fiends indeed.
- Sword Catch: Good power and another grab focused one.
17th Level Encounter Powers
- Earth Quake Stomp: Seems strange. It needs to target a prone creature but can also target an empty square...? Why does the enemy need to be prone at all and instead let teh power knock him over? At this level you could kick the ground hard enough to blast the enemy of his feet surely.
- Rippling Sheet: Very nice power. No problems that I can see - though it's a str attack and has the force keyword. Most of the other force ones seem to be wis based. Not a problem though.
- Touch of Oblivion: I'd probably make it 2[W] and remove the additional damage from the secondary attack.
- Yin Palm: Very nice power and it invokes a great image.
19th Level Daily Powers
- Agonising Spasms: I like the power. Might increase its damage to 2[W] or 3[W] though. Also, it's the only instance of the "Power Blocked" condition in the list. Which is perhaps a shame since it's a nice new condition. Maybe something like Rippling Sheet (or other weaken powers) could be changed to Power Blocked instead.
- Lion's Roar: Excellent image invoked again and useful for fighting things like wizards and dragons and...
- Raven's Theft: Nice, but I'd probably increase the damage to 4[W]. These are level 19 Daily's doing about half the damage of a fighter's equivalent powers. Compare to the Paladin's Corona of Blinding Radiance at the same level which does 3[W], blinds, targets a worse defence and is a burst. Raven's a bit on the weak side.
22nd Level Utility Powers
- Cloud Step: At long last, wuxia at-will. Very nice.
- Curse Consuming Breath: Too specific I'd say. Maybe also make it target [Save Ends] effects as well.
- God Pinning Stance: More grapple stuff~ I like it, but the fact that it's a Daily makes me sad...I wonder if you could make them at-wills and still be balanced?
- Spirit-Shaking Presence: Good stuff. Like everything else at this level though, you have to take them instad of Cloud Step...that's a tough choice.
23rd Level Ecounter Powers
- Celestial Wrath: Flavourful power and very nice.
- Mountain Hermit Blow: Strange power but good at what it does. Much better if you don't need to move.
- Starfall: seems like a good power. Craters are fun too.
- Whirlwind Kick: Quite nice. It's another one of those powers that seems to want to be either Str or Wis vs AC though.
25th Level Daily Powers
- Frenzied Yang Mania: Awesome power. Definitely fun to use though I might make it 3[W] or 4[W].
- Insidious Yin Venom: Like Frenzied Yang, Insidious Yin is another awesome power. I barely prefer Frenzied to Insidious but it's very close and, again, I'm suggesting 3[W] or 4[W]
- My Master's Before Me: Wierd and interesting power. I can't argue with it.
- Stone Rippling Blow: Might increase the damage by 1[W] again but otherwise a solid power.
27th Level Encounters
- Budda Palm: Kung Fu Hustle much? Seems like a nice power.
- Dragon Kick: Get the Tac-Lord to line your enemies up like dominos and let it rip.
- Sealing Grip: Fantastic power though flavour-wise it might be better suited to target will.
- Surrounded on Ten Sides: Would probably up the damage by 1[W] again. Otherwise, seems good.
29th Level Daily Powers
- Fortress Shattering Blow: I would make it an AC penaly. Ref saves aren't garaunteed to be lower than AC and on average it's only 2 - 3 points. Just a suggestion to make it an actual minus.
- Mountain Crushing Grip: Nasty power and the ultimate grapple move.
- Nerve Puppet: Very awesome. Dance minions =D
- Soul Severing Blow: The only power on your list that made me go "...I could abuse that." Probably not much worse than most other epic powers though.
Overall, the list is bloody fantastic and put together exceptionally well. Nevertheless, I have some critques. Firstly, there are some inconsistancies in the split between Str and Wis - mostly in the way it's handled. Some powers are either Str or Wis. Some make you choose Str or Wis and say you can't change. Some powers seem like they should be Str or Wis but are just one or the other. Similiarly, the division between Weapon and unarmed powers: there are very few powers per level that can be used with a weapon - many powers have requirements for unarmed strikes only. This isn't a problem per se but when you have a PP dedicated to crazy sword stuffs, the lack of powers you can use with a sword make things difficult (especially if you want your primary stat to be wis instead of str). On the balance front, there is nothing really overpowered in the list at all. But! Many of the powers seem to have erred too far on the side of caution. Some encounters and most of the daily's would benefit immensely from just a 1[W] incrase. The daily's themselves might also make excellent use of more "When you miss" effects or the reliable keyword. Otherwise, really, I'm stunned. The class is fantastic and a definite achievement. Bravo. PARAGON PATHSFor the most part, I'll leave these alone right now. But I do want to comment on the Tattooed Monk: firslty, great execution in my opinion. It works and it works well. Though have you considered opening it up to Martial and Ki classes as well? While not purely as mystical as using a Divine/Arcane/Whatever class, the idea of inscribing magical tattoos on your body that let it exceed its limits and perform fantastic feats (Example: Fighter powers) is an image I can't shake.
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5 years ago ::
Aug 19, 2008 - 9:48AM
#144
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Date Joined:
Sep 27, 2007
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Great comments PaladinOne  . I can concur there are some odd balls in the class, but it does kind of work. Some of the powers do feel a bit low at first but when you start looking at some of the other ways the class impounds on itself then increasing seems a bit too powerful. Thanks for the name info Denouema. Not sure if it will get changed, i kind of like the sound of the name as is, Valdrax is far more into the convention though so he may change, ill have to change my sig if he does The MC feat is my least favorite part of this class but it makes sense. Its just breaking the mold is all. No one really knows what happened to Valdrax so I dont know if he will get anyones feedback.
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5 years ago ::
Aug 19, 2008 - 10:45AM
#145
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Date Joined:
Jul 11, 2008
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Well, all classes are meant to work together with themselves like that. And the Wulin itself wouldn't be hurt much if it's encounters stayed the same (it's only a few that need upping in my opinion).
My main concern is with the Daily powers. While about a 1/3 of them are fine the rest are a bit subpar - and since those are the crunch powers, subpar is the wrong side of the line to be on. The vast majority of them could be fixed, I believe, by increasing their damage by a mere 1[W] and then adding some miss effects or reliable to those that needed the boost. That would bring them up to par nicely. Howver, there are a couple that need looking at more - such as Raven's Theft which I commented on in my last post: where it's outdone in every aspect by a Paladin power of the same level and can't be compared to same level Fighter power - it is in dire need of a boost along with potentially a few others.
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5 years ago ::
Aug 19, 2008 - 1:00PM
#146
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Date Joined:
May 12, 2003
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Very nice class you designed here.
However certain features could be abused and AC could turn too high.
I sugget you change the Defensive Awareness:
You gain a +2 bonus to AC when wearing light armor or no armor and wield no shield.
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5 years ago ::
Aug 19, 2008 - 11:21PM
#147
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Date Joined:
Jul 11, 2008
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However certain features could be abused and AC could turn too high.
I sugget you change the Defensive Awareness:
You gain a +2 bonus to AC when wearing light armor or no armor and wield no shield.
Nah, that class feature is fine. You can see the AC break down at the end of the class write up. It takes into account defensive advantage but no one in the comparison is using a shield. All the defenders, if they used a shield, would come out to about the same AC.
The class feature just closes the gap between Light and Heavy armour - it doesn't unbalance the expected AC.
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5 years ago ::
Aug 19, 2008 - 11:55PM
#148
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Date Joined:
May 12, 2003
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The class feature just closes the gap between Light and Heavy armour - it doesn't unbalance the expected AC.
The fact that it can stack with a shield is what troubles me :P
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5 years ago ::
Aug 20, 2008 - 1:02AM
#149
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Date Joined:
Jul 11, 2008
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That's what I'm saying - the fact that it stacks with a shield isn't unbalancing at all and making it not stack with a shield only serves to make it weak if you want a shield (and thus only taken by those planning to use no shield and light armour).
That feat closes the gap between light and heavy armour - because heavy armour offers more AC than light armour. So, as a defender, if you're wearing light armour you're automatically subpar. Which is a problem for the lightly armoured Wulin (which is why they get it - so they can wear light armour and not miss out on the AC). Quite seriously, check the AC breakdown posted on the first page. It shows you that the ACs for all the defenders are comparable even when taking the extra AC from the ability into account (that is, all the ACs are about the same and no one in the comparison uses a shield so they can all get the same AC if they really want).
It's not even overpowered on the multiclass feat. Get +2 AC in cloth or no armour? Even if you're a wizard, you can just wear leather and your AC is exactly the same. There is really no problem at all with the extra AC.
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5 years ago ::
Aug 20, 2008 - 6:05AM
#150
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Date Joined:
Sep 27, 2007
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.... wow i just wrote up like 10 suggestions and hit back. To sum, i kind of agree with you on daily. Mostly at low levels - especialyl raven theft. Alot of attacks could benefit from 1[w] (like skin shattering blow) but i would like to see a few move from AC to Refl. (stormsoul?) and a few tack on an effect (sickening touch). The ones in paranthesis are just examples. I think I hade about 8 all together:
-Skin Shattering Blow +1[w]
-Sickening touch + Slow?
-Storm Soul - Vs Refl?
-Raven Theft : Here maybe an aftereffect? I know supposed to be monsters but this seems like that kind of power.
-Stone Ripping Blow : Make difficult terrain and add initial dmg, ala icestorm
Couple of issues with powers in general
-Nerve Puppet: Needs to handle forced movement that would end grab
-Frenzied Yang Mania: Is knockdown just once ? if not when does it reoccur?
---------Edit--------------
So I got nastalgic for color spray and I think raven's theft should be blinded and stunned (Save Ends) and After Effect: Blinded (Save Ends). Then its really a single target shutdown which i like since its hard to land since its an AC attack and does weak damage with no miss effect for an end of the tier daily. it guarantees 2 rounds of blind vs a solo if it lands with a 50% change for a third.
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