The way I understand this is that once you have vigor any temp hp gained with the invigorating keyword will stack. Other source will not stack and only replace the total if the new one is higher then the old one.
Example, I attack with surge, gain 5 temp hp. I attack again, gain 5 more, up to 10. Then I get hit for 3 damage, triggering vigor. Since I have 7 temp hp left vigor does nothing. I get hit again for 3 more damage and only have 4 temp hp remaining,vigor give me 5 which is higher then 4 so I get back to 4 total.
That's my understanding at least.
That's my understanding as well (and others are jumping in with confirmation).
It's not the way the ability was handled for the example above, though. So it's not represented in the "findings."
Battlerager Vigor, adds all temp hp together. So you get points when they hit you and you hit them.
To continue your scenario (though 20 is a bit extreme, unless he's a Warforged: 16 Str, 20 Con, but its ok for agrument.) Also, lets keep saying the Goblin goes twice, for what ever reason.
Yes, now it is your turn. You hit, 7 damage and you get 5 temp so: 26hp +10temp hp
Goblin hits again:Spear for 3 dmg going to: 26hp +12temp hp the battle rager is struck again by the same goblin, this time he dealt 6dmg 26hp +11temp hp
Your turn again. You hit, 6 damage and you get 5 temp so: 26hp +16temp hp
Goblin hits again:Spear for 3 dmg going to: 26hp +18temp hp the battle rager is struck again by the same goblin, this time he dealt 6dmg 26hp +16temp hp
And so on...
Once this guy gets movin' he is the juggernaut of temp hp, gaining infinite momentum over his enemies. The guy's been hit 6 times for 27 damage and lost only 4 hp and gained 16 temp hp. Sorry, that's broken.
McSmashin
Only Invigorating temporary hit points stack.
something like:
30hp battlerager (with 20con) just got struck by a Goblin Spear for 6 dmg going to: 24hp +5temp hp the battle rager is struck again by the same goblin, this time he dealt 6dmg 23hp +5temp hp
Yes, now it is your turn. You hit, 7 damage and you get 5 temp so: 23hp +10temp hp
Goblin hits again:Spear for 6 dmg going to: 23hp +4temp hp the battle rager is struck again by the same goblin, this time he dealt 6dmg 21hp
Your turn again. You hit, 6 damage and you get 5 temp so: 21hp +5temp hp
Goblin hits again:Spear for 6 dmg going to: 20hp the battle rager is struck again by the same goblin, this time he dealt 6dmg 14hp +5temp hp
And so on...
* I may have messed some of this up, I'm in a hurry.
Sort of, but not quite. Invigorating HPs will stack with everything, no matter what order you get them in. Basically you have to track Invig Temps seperately.
So you hit with surge, get 5. You hit with surge again, get another 5, up to 10. You get hit for 3, triggering Vigor. You have 7 temps, and you get 5 temps, because they stack with Invig Temps. So now you have 12 (7 stacking and 5 normal). Then you get hit again, for 2 damage. 2 of your temps go away, leaving you with 7 stacking and 3 regular. Then you get 5 regular ones, which overwrite your 3 and you're back to 12 total (7 stacking and 5 regular).
Temporary HP is Temporary HP, there's not "stacking hp" and "not stacking" hp
invigorating powers let you stack THOSE temporary hit points to your TOTAL temporary hit points:
like this: first you have 0 temporary hit points So you hit with surge, get 5 T.hp You hit with surge again, get 5 T.hp (which stack with your existing T.hp due to invigorating) You get hit for 3dmg, now your T.hp is at 7, it triggers Vigor. You have 7 temps, and you gain 5 T.hp, but those extra 5 aren't stackers, so you'll continue with your total 7 T.hp. you get hit AGAIN, this time for 6 dmg, your T.hp is lowered to 1, it triggers Vigor. you have 1 temp, and you gain 5 T.hp, but those extra 5 aren't stackers, but their bigger than 1, so your T.hp is now at 5 again. you hit with surge, gain 5 T.hp, those ARE stackers, so your T.hp is now at 10.
Sort of, but not quite. Invigorating HPs will stack with everything, no matter what order you get them in. Basically you have to track Invig Temps seperately.
So you hit with surge, get 5. You hit with surge again, get another 5, up to 10. You get hit for 3, triggering Vigor. You have 7 temps, and you get 5 temps, because they stack with Invig Temps. So now you have 12 (7 stacking and 5 normal). Then you get hit again, for 2 damage. 2 of your temps go away, leaving you with 7 stacking and 3 regular. Then you get 5 regular ones, which overwrite your 3 and you're back to 12 total (7 stacking and 5 regular).
I don't think you're right, Seraphim. I can see how the text might make you think that way, but if that was RAI, I think they would've included rules on which stack of temp HP gets depleted first.
It says that Invigorating THP stacks with THP "you already have"; It does not say it stacks with any THP afterwards. I think after you add it to your total, it becomes regular THP.
The problem is not with Battle Rager class feature. The problem is with broken dwarven racial feat. Dwarf feats let's you gain to many temp HP, in addition to the extra con you get for being dwarf in the first place.
Exculding dwarf this class feature alows more resilient defender in exchange for the huge damage and OA benefits wisdom fighter gets.
I don't think you're right, Seraphim. I can see how the text might make you think that way, but if that was RAI, I think they would've included rules on which stack of temp HP gets depleted first.
It says that Invigorating THP stacks with THP "you already have"; It does not say it stacks with any THP afterwards. I think after you add it to your total, it becomes regular THP.
Hmm, that's a good point. The text says "when you gain temporary hit points...with the invigorating keyword....stack with temporary hit points you already have." That does seem to mean that Invig hps can stack when they come in after, but not the other way around. That's not how I initially read it at all.
ok, I officially change my post from earlier.
However, that makes it even LESS broken than I thought it was, so that's ok by me.
Hmm, that's a good point. The text says "when you gain temporary hit points...with the invigorating keyword....stack with temporary hit points you already have." That does seem to mean that Invig hps can stack when they come in after, but not the other way around. That's not how I initially read it at all.
ok, I officially change my post from earlier.
However, that makes it even LESS broken than I thought it was, so that's ok by me.
It also makes the changes a lot less mindboggling to track, which was my primary dig against the class when I thought it worked that way.
I'd still like some official clarification, but it's pretty obvious that this isn't anywhere near as broken as originally advertised.
No, but its Str+2 vs AC. Damage is 1W+S; you're using an axe, hammer, or mace, you add your ConMod to damage, so 1W+S+C. pretty sick. Then you give the target CA until the start of your turn (so you pay for your +2 by giving him +2. If he already has CA, like from Polearm Gamble, no loss).
Crushing Surge is Str vs AC, damage is 1W+S; because its Invigorating, you also gain THP = ConMod. Because you have Battlerage Vigor, they stack with any other THP you have.
Battlerage Vigor: -Each time an enemy hits you with a melee or close attack, you gain THP = ConMod (after attack). -When you gain THP by hitting with an Invigorating attack, these THP stack with those THP you already have from another source. -When wearing light armour/chain and you have THP, you get +2 damage with axe, hammer, mace, or pick (+1 with other weapons)
First feat discussed above is Dwarf Stoneblood. "add one-half your Constitution modifier to the temporary hit points granted by your Battlerage Vigor." There are 2 possible interpretations:
1) It only adds to the THP gained when you get hit by an enemy. 2) It adds to the THP gained when you get hit; also, it adds to the stacked THP Invigorating attacks give you (because normally THP override each other).
assuming interpretation 1, using a dwarf with Str 14 and Con 20 (35 hp). AC 18 w/ chain, heavy shield, and warhammer. something like this happens:
Kobolds will flank and have extra +1 hit from mob attack. +10 vs AC 18 = 60% hit rate for avg of 6.5 damage.
umm... when he gets hit, he gets 7 THP. BAD EXAMPLE!! No wonder he wins. With that kinda extra THP, almost impossible to damage him after the first round of combat, esp if he hits with Crushing Surge.
So, lets go with a more balanced dwarf (Str 16, Con 18, 33 hp, same gear) vs 2 goblin blackblades. Flanking, they'll be +7 hit for 2d6+2 damage (+5 and 1d6+2 without CA). +7 vs AC 18 = 45% hit rate for avg 9 dmg (35% hit rate and 5.5 damage without).
Dwarf has +5 hit with Crushing and +7 hit with Brash. vs AC 16, thats 45% (8.5 dmg +4 THP) and 55% hit rate (12.5 dmg). Gobbos, with better initiative both go first.
OK, this is pretty rediculous too, but we'll still go with it. I'll also use 'stupid' %, so that when they = 100%, they hit.
Example 1, dwarf uses Brash Strike. First round, everyone misses (Gob = 45%, dwarf = 55%). Round 2, both gobbos miss (90%); dwarf hits gobbo 1 for 12.5 with Brash strike (110%).
Round 3, dwarf gets hit by gobbo 1 (24 hp + 6 THP), then gets hit by second gobbo (21 hp + 6 THP) (135%). Dwarf misses (165%)
Round 4, both gobbos miss (180%), Dwarf its gobbo 1 again, killing it (220%).
Round 5. gobbo 2 still has CA (due to Brash strike) and hits (235%) for 9. Dwarf now has 18 hp + 6 THP.
Dwarf changes to Crushing Surge and gobbo 2 won't be able to get through his THP. Or, he can stay at it and kill the gobbo with Brash Strike by round 8 (in which case, gobbo will hit 1 more time, bringing dwarf to (15+6 THP). [you see where this goes]
Alternately, just using Crushing Surge, it looks like this:
rounds 1 and 2, all misses (90%/90%)
Round 3, both gobbos hit (24 hp + 6 THP) then (21 hp + 6 THP). Dwarf hits gobbo 1 for 8.5 + 4 THP (21 hp + 10 THP) (135%/135%)
round 4, all miss (180%)
round 5, gobbo 1 hits, reducing to 1 THP, but gets 6 back (21 hp + 6 THP), gobbo 2 hits (18 hp + 6 THP). Dwarf hits gobbo 1 (18 hp + 10 THP). (235%)
round 6, all miss (270%)
round 7 all hit. similar to round 5, gobbo 1 reduces THP to 1 and refills back to (18+6 THP), gobbo 2 hits (15+6 THP). Dwarf hits and kills gobbo 1, bringing his hp to (15+10 THP). (315%/315%). Gobbo 2 now has only 35% hit and 5.5 damage.
Round 8, both miss (350 gobbo/360 dwarf)
round 9, gobbo misses (385%), dwarf hits (405%). Gobbo 2 takes 8.5 and dwarf now has (15 hp + 14 THP).
Round 12, gobbo misses (490%), Dwarf hits (540%); gobbo at 8 hp, dwarf at (15 hp + 12.5 THP).
Dwarf kills gobbo on round 14
not entirely realistic, but on law of averages. Realistically though, set up like this gives the gobbos the BEST chance of killing the dwarf. normally, they both wouldn't hit in the same round and the dwarf would have been able to set up more of a hp buffer. Of course, this also doesn't factor crits either, but same general idea. In both examples, Dwarf ended with 15 hp, and not spending his second wind.
Having the dwarf start with 14 Str and 20 Con is a BAD IDEA. with only +4 hit, he'll have a REALLY hard time hitting anything, especially at higher level.
Sort of, but not quite. Invigorating HPs will stack with everything, no matter what order you get them in. Basically you have to track Invig Temps seperately.
So you hit with surge, get 5. You hit with surge again, get another 5, up to 10. You get hit for 3, triggering Vigor. You have 7 temps, and you get 5 temps, because they stack with Invig Temps. So now you have 12 (7 stacking and 5 normal). Then you get hit again, for 2 damage. 2 of your temps go away, leaving you with 7 stacking and 3 regular. Then you get 5 regular ones, which overwrite your 3 and you're back to 12 total (7 stacking and 5 regular).
Two things: why not call the regular temp hp from Vigor: Temporary Damage Resistance, so you don't confuse the temp hp for temp hp? since now there are two type of temp hps.
Second, how bout, change the dwarf feat to paragon, and Invig Keyword gives 1/2 your Con, until Paragon, to help balance it at low level play? (b/c the power seems more balanced at Paragon/Epic)
