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4 years ago ::
Nov 29, 2008 - 8:16AM
#351
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Date Joined:
Feb 25, 2004
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The problem is that the "once per turn" doesn't work as far as mechanic goes.
Would this be better?
Each time an enemy hits you with a melee or a close attack and deals damage to your real hit points, you gain temporary hit points equal to the amount of real hit points damaged up to a maximum of your Constitution modifier (after the attack is resolved).
Seems to keep the flavor without the invincibility.
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4 years ago ::
Nov 29, 2008 - 8:42AM
#352
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Would this be better?
Seems to keep the flavor without the invincibility. Personally I would just limit it to once per round though, since it's easier to keep track of.
i like that...they have to at least get hurt to use the ability...this effectively gives them double their HP. At higher levels as they take more damage it wont be double, but closer to half their HP again.
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4 years ago ::
Nov 29, 2008 - 10:40AM
#353
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Date Joined:
Jun 29, 2008
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As for doing nothing by attacking you, the spreadsheet people have put together has shown that the battlerager only comes out a little ahead in hp, to a non battlerager.
That's totally false. The numbers I have put forth shown that even with some range attackers if there are enough melee attackers on the rager the damage mitigated is in the range of 50% for lvl 1 vs lvl 1. That's the "tank" version obviously. With only melee attackers even once you factor in skirmishers,etc, the rager will mitigate in the range of 66%.
With only a lvl 2 daily that give regeneration of 2 + constitution mode, a rager can actually KILL a whole lvl 1 typical encounter. But that's not broken when any other class would be dead in 3 rounds max.
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4 years ago ::
Nov 30, 2008 - 5:22AM
#354
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Date Joined:
Dec 18, 2004
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i like that...they have to at least get hurt to use the ability...this effectively gives them double their HP. At higher levels as they take more damage it wont be double, but closer to half their HP again.
You will also get hurt with the current feature, you get the temp hp AFTER the attack. Those "higher levels" where they do more damage are level 2-30 (imo).
So no double hit points at all.
Besides that, I like that rule too.
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4 years ago ::
Nov 30, 2008 - 8:14AM
#355
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Date Joined:
Jun 29, 2008
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Okay, so I finally found a campaign and made a dwarven Battlerager to play.
16 str
18 con
12 dex
10 int
14 wis
8 Cha
Wielding a Battleaxe, Large Shield and Chainmail. Feat taken at level 1 was "devoted challenge" (+wis bonus to roll and damage when making a basic attack granted by combat challenge) so I could still effectively defend my friends even with the lowered attack bonus since I was the only defender.
The DM didn't do anything out of the ordinary, we had a 3 fights in that session.
The +5 bab at level one hurt me but I ignored it as I was aiming to do my job which is to defend my party members (by marking and the threat that I actually hit better and harder when they try to shift or take down my friends +7 to hit, 1d10 + 7 damage). Crushing surge didn't really do much for me, but perhaps I didn't roll that well either. I did get 8 thp at certain points of the combat but it was nearly impossible to keep it at 8 thp and is hardly reliable, but it was a nice bonus to get in combat.
Well, the rager wasn't exactly broken in the session. It was definitely hardier than a normal fighter, if I was any other fighter I'd most likely had gone down sooner than the BR. However I did go down in the 2nd fight and had to be brought back up with heals.
The battlerager looks alot hardier on paper than in practice. In actual combat my hp went down quite abit before the temp hp even kicked in, with the range attackers softening me up a little before the melees even started on me. A rough example of combat (not actual numbers in the battle, I can't really remember the damage I took):
hp 33
(RNG) take 8 dmg left 25HP
(Melee) take 6 left 19HP and 4thp
(RNG) take 8 dmg left 17HP
(Melee) take 6 dmg left 11hp and 4thp
When combat is interspersed with non-melee and close attacks (which is relatively common in the campaigns I play). Even a battlerager can go down pretty quickly and is hardly as invincible as some believe.
I could have made my dwarf tougher (stoneblood instead of devoted) or more accurate (sword instead of axe) but then it would be at the expense of making myself a less of a threat on the board and IMO a less effective defender. More toughness at the cost of being less effective at defending.
So do I feel if the BR's broken? Probably not.
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4 years ago ::
Nov 30, 2008 - 8:56AM
#356
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Date Joined:
Jun 14, 2006
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Okay, so I finally found a campaign and made a dwarven Battlerager to play.
16 str
18 con
12 dex
10 int
14 wis
8 Cha
Wielding a Battleaxe, Large Shield and Chainmail. Feat taken at level 1 was "devoted challenge" (+wis bonus to roll and damage when making a basic attack granted by combat challenge) so I could still effectively defend my friends even with the lowered attack bonus since I was the only defender.
The DM didn't do anything out of the ordinary, we had a 3 fights in that session.
The +5 bab at level one hurt me but I ignored it as I was aiming to do my job which is to defend my party members (by marking and the threat that I actually hit better and harder when they try to shift or take down my friends +7 to hit, 1d10 + 7 damage). Crushing surge didn't really do much for me, but perhaps I didn't roll that well either. I did get 8 thp at certain points of the combat but it was nearly impossible to keep it at 8 thp and is hardly reliable, but it was a nice bonus to get in combat.
Well, the rager wasn't exactly broken in the session. It was definitely hardier than a normal fighter, if I was any other fighter I'd most likely had gone down sooner than the BR. However I did go down in the 2nd fight and had to be brought back up with heals.
The battlerager looks alot hardier on paper than in practice. In actual combat my hp went down quite abit before the temp hp even kicked in, with the range attackers softening me up a little before the melees even started on me. A rough example of combat (not actual numbers in the battle, I can't really remember the damage I took):
hp 33
(RNG) take 8 dmg left 25HP
(Melee) take 6 left 19HP and 4thp
(RNG) take 8 dmg left 17HP
(Melee) take 6 dmg left 11hp and 4thp
When combat is interspersed with non-melee and close attacks (which is relatively common in the campaigns I play). Even a battlerager can go down pretty quickly and is hardly as invincible as some believe.
I could have made my dwarf tougher (stoneblood instead of devoted) or more accurate (sword instead of axe) but then it would be at the expense of making myself a less of a threat on the board and IMO a less effective defender. More toughness at the cost of being less effective at defending.
So do I feel if the BR's broken? Probably not.
Someone who gets it.
Someone who actually did the RAW treatment. Since damage TempHP are applied after damage is received (reducing THP pool) and then these Temp HP are non-stacking, the net effect is that the pool of TempHPs will migrate toward the value of the damaging THP buff only.
You give up your offenseive nature, and WISELY buff your marking ability to have a better chance of locking down an opponent.
I am doing a build just as you suggest, and choose footwork lure as my second at will. I hope to use this to gain and offer CA more frequently which will help mitigate the loss of offensive% hits.
Like you I figured Stoneblood and would add Dwarven Weapon Training (for +2 dmg, and +1AC using Urgrosh) for feats at 2nd and 4th. Still unsure of the order... but by fourth I'll have 'em both added so no more worries then. I will likely base it on field experience during first level and see if I prefer AC and dishing out damage over buffing the stackable THPs. Instinct and role-playing penashe have my favoring going the Urgrosh route at level 2, but I am keeping an open mind.
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4 years ago ::
Dec 01, 2008 - 7:32AM
#357
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Date Joined:
Mar 19, 2001
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Like you I figured Stoneblood and would add Dwarven Weapon Training (for +2 dmg, and +1AC using Urgrosh) for feats at 2nd and 4th. Still unsure of the order... but by fourth I'll have 'em both added so no more worries then. I will likely base it on field experience during first level and see if I prefer AC and dishing out damage over buffing the stackable THPs. Instinct and role-playing penashe have my favoring going the Urgrosh route at level 2, but I am keeping an open mind.
I'm not sure why you would take an urgrosh over a waraxe and heavy shield? You don't really have enough dex to make much use of most of the tempest powers, unless you plan on using dual strike liberally?
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4 years ago ::
Dec 01, 2008 - 5:20PM
#358
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Date Joined:
Jul 16, 2008
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I just read over the battlerager and from what I understand there are 2 effects for this build option: Get temp HP after being hit - these cap at CON mod and can occur more than once per round When you gain temporary hit points by hitting
with an attack that has the invigorating keyword,
those temporary hit points stack with any other temporary
hit points you already have.
Get temp HP when you hit something with an Invigorating attack - these don't cap and it can only occur once per round
Just using a Dwarven fighter with the Dwarf Stoneblood feat:
Str 16
Dex 10
Con 18 (16)
Int 10
Wis 12 (14)
Cha 10
When he gets hit he'd receive 6 temp HP
When he hits something (warhammer = +5/1d10+3) he'd receive 6 temp HP
If he was fighting something weak then (assuming he hits) he'd start building up a huge temp HP pool.
Simulation vs a conveyor of kobold minions (fighting one at a time, them being replaced after dieing)
Dwarf HP: 33
Kobold hits for 4 damage (29HP/6Temp)
Dwarf misses
Kobold hits for 4 damage (29HP/6Temp) he's staying at 6 now because he's losing 4 temp, then gaining 6 back to the cap of 6 again
Dwarf hits and kills a kobold (29HP/12Temp)
Kobold hits for 4 damage - this is where it gets confusing - which temp HP does it take off? those gained from being hit or those gained from hitting? Stupidly this does make a difference...
If you subtract them from those gained from being hit then he'll still be on 12 temp HP. However if you subtract from those gained from hitting something, he'll be on 8 temp HP.
I can see where they were trying to go but I think they've just made it too complex and in turn it's open to exploitation due to how it's interpreted.
Having to manage 2 sets of temp HP sources = painful.
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4 years ago ::
Dec 01, 2008 - 5:30PM
#359
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Date Joined:
Oct 15, 2002
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Stupidly this does make a difference...
...
Having to manage 2 sets of temp HP sources = painful.
It would, but you don't. All non-Rager-Invigorating THPs work like they always did. If you have THP and you gain more, your total is the greater of those two. Rager-Invigorating THPs add onto any existent THP total, but they then become part of the same pool. So if I had 5 THP, hit with Crushing Surge for 5, and get tapped by a minion for 4, I just keep the 6 THP pool after, with the effect from the hit being preempted.
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4 years ago ::
Dec 01, 2008 - 5:43PM
#360
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Date Joined:
Jul 16, 2008
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ok - so that means the HP gained from being hit will only ever happen if you have less than 6THP?
So once you've built up more than 6THP by hitting with an Invigor attack, you'll cease to gain the benefit of the THP from being hit until the THP total drops below 6...
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