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Do NOT mess with this guy. Show

I see a lot of people whining these days "Why can't I play a Two-Weapon Fighter?" Then other people say "Play a Ranger!" And the TW Fighters say "But it's not a Defender!"

BAH!!! Says I (and pish-tosh as well, because it's fun to say pish-tosh). It's entirely possible to come up with a Two-Weapon Defender. Don't believe me? Have a look! I've named this particular fighter "Harvey", after... well, you can guess it, I'm sure. Anyway, he spent some time in a town's militia, before striking it out on his own. In the meantime, he started to develop a new fighting style, combining his training in the militia with his own attempts at mastering a Ranger's 2-Weapon Style. Here he is:

Scimitar and Short Sword Harvey Show

Since the Double Sword came out in the Adventurer's Vault, here's another Two-Weapon Build that focuses exclusively on that weapon.

Double Sword Harvey Show

I've also added a Scimitar and Spiked Shield Build which can be found here.

So there you have it. Two-Weapon Fighter, ready kick butt and take names. So, how does it look?

I think it looks very well done indeed, good show.

just curious though, what is it that allows him to pick up a Paladin power at level 24(ish)? That an eternal seeker thingy?

Yep. Eternal Seekers are allowed to pick their attack powers from any class.

If you're picking a level 22 utility power from any class that allows you to shift, why wouldn't you retrain a feat to Skill Training (Acrobatics) and take Dazzling Acrobatics or even Ignoble Escape? Wouldn't you rather shift 12 (or 6 and ditch a mark) than 3?

that is a freakin sick epic destiny perk. Nice.

Very nice build. You've easily demonstrated the viability of a two-weapon defender.

Although, I must comment. Most of the "I want to play a two-weapon fighter" threads I've seen are from people who want to play a mobile, lightly-armored melee fighter with an offensive fighting style (which is what the two-weapon fighter was in 3.x). To those people, the answer is still going to be, "play a Ranger".

Salrantol wrote:

If you're picking a level 22 utility power from any class that allows you to shift, why wouldn't you retrain a feat to Skill Training (Acrobatics) and take Dazzling Acrobatics or even Ignoble Escape? Wouldn't you rather shift 12 (or 6 and ditch a mark) than 3?

Meh. It was past midnight when I was done posting this. Realistically, I could choose a power from ANY class, but I didn't choose from some to maintain flavor. Harvey spontaneously sprouting bat wings would just be... weird.

But you are right, the Utility I picked may not have been the best choice. That is why we post builds on the internet; so that they may be critiqued and improved.

where is the Eternal Seeker from??

Nunspa wrote:

where is the Eternal Seeker from??

I think Players Handbook, in the epic destinies section.

wow how the hell did I miss that?

damn

This is an excellent write-up.

I was just considering how a full multiclass into Eternal Seeker would turn out... Complete power swap makes some pretty heavy changes to the class, and all of them seem to further the goal in your case.

Well done.

I'm probably missing something very basic here, but what do you mean by:

"Human Fighter/Ranger Lv. 1"

?

Look at his feats and at wills. Feat indicates that he has multiclass feated into ranger. But looking at his at wills you can see he started as a warrior.


Also wanted to add in its gems like this i wish could get stickied.

Ethilrist wrote:

I'm probably missing something very basic here, but what do you mean by:

"Human Fighter/Ranger Lv. 1"

?

He's Human, his main class is the fighter, and he multiclassed into ranger at level 1

So, I can see the build is fairly popular right now. Can anyone think of a way to improve it? Right now the only thing I can think of to work on is the Lv. 26 Utility, but if anyone else sees anything I missed, say so.

OR you could be a Half-Elf and take Twin Strike at level 1 as your bonus At Will power! Then you'll be able to fight like a TW fighter all through heroic! (it becomes an encounter but still very helpful. Otherwise follow above method and retrain later on.)

Edited the build a bit. Instead of Safe Stride, which isn't an optimal choice for Harvey what with his lower WIS, I've elected to use Entropic Ward. Reasons are in the build, but lets just say, it's made of awesome.

Nightshade wrote:

OR you could be a Half-Elf and take Twin Strike at level 1 as your bonus At Will power! Then you'll be able to fight like a TW fighter all through heroic!

Interesting idea. The thing about Humans I like, though, are the bonus feat, which helps me get Harvey up and running faster, and the fact that if I take Twin Strike as an encounter power, I'm not sure if I could take it as the Paragon Multiclassing At-Will Power, which is really the whole point of Harvey Paragon Multiclassing in the first place. Although I'm sure a reasonable DM would allow me to retrain Harvey's Dilletante Power anyway. If you wanna build Harvey as a Half-Elf, go for it! :D

Made another change in the build. Replaced Boundless Endurance with Unbreakable. Since Harvey's CON modifier is never going to go beyond +2, the 2d6 temporary HP is more valuable than regeneration 2 HP a round, especially at higher levels.

I have a question about the use of Heavy Blade Opportunity with Twin Strike since Harvey is wielding a Scimitar (a heavy blade) and a Shortsword (a light blade).

Would that still work?

As i understand it heavy blade oppertunity lets you use an atwill for an AoO as long as you are wielding a heavy blade.

So
enemy triggers AO
feat check's Harvey's equiped weapon its a heavy blade
Harvey may now use an at will
This atwill cuases him to attack with both hands

No foul.

Bivotar wrote:

I have a question about the use of Heavy Blade Opportunity with Twin Strike since Harvey is wielding a Scimitar (a heavy blade) and a Shortsword (a light blade).

Would that still work?

As long as Harvey leads with his scimitar, I'm sure HBO works.

Lord_Ventnor wrote:

As long as Harvey leads with his scimitar, I'm sure HBO works.

That is what I thought too...but I could see, perhaps, some DMs crying foul. Though I am not sure its really breaking anything...as you will do less damage with scimitar/shortsword than scimitar/scimitar. I know I personally would allow it, I was just asking what others thought. :D

And PS...awesome build. I really enjoyed reading it. Gave me some ideas as well.

So far I haven't read a character presentation this amusing and entertaining, you have done exceptionally well on that part.

On the improving part of the build, have you thought about making Harvey wield twin Katars? It loses some flavor, which is a pity and Heavy Blade Oppurtunity would be out which is sad, too. However Harvey could save quite a bunch of feats in the process and trades just one damage die size for another High Crit.

That'd probably be a major change and I'd rather not see Harvey modified so heavily but I find myself quite curious about your reasons for favoring this particular build in case you have already pondered such alternatives.

Sorry, I dont think this works.....

Although you are a Warrior of the Wild, the multiclass feat does not say you can specialize in Archer Ranger or Two-Blade Ranger, so you don't get Two-Blade Fighting Style - so you don't qualify for any powers that are specifically needing, Two-Blade Fighting Style , you only qualify for general Ranger Powers....

sorry.

This is interesting, especially like the simple interpretation with Cleave. I'll look at most of it later on.

Although at 15th level, probably going to ask what others would ask at some point. At 15th level, how come no "Glorious Chainsaw Method"? Ranger, pg 109. I think ye know the one I mean.

McSmashin wrote:

Sorry, I dont think this works.....

Although you are a Warrior of the Wild, the multiclass feat does not say you can specialize in Archer Ranger or Two-Blade Ranger, so you don't get Two-Blade Fighting Style - so you don't qualify for any powers that are specifically needing, Two-Blade Fighting Style , you only qualify for general Ranger Powers....

sorry.

What powers are you thinking about? All Ranger powers I read have 'wield two melee weapons' as a requirement and that's a matter of fact and not a specific class feature.

Ventnor: Yes, Rain of Blows is two attacks for all weapons, but it is three attacks for light blade, spear or flail if you have a Dex of 15 or higher.

The limits on the third attack make sure it is not overpowering, only someone who deliberately built for that power would have the third attack.

Most fighters are not going to build to Dex as their secondary stat.

So far I haven't read a character presentation this amusing and entertaining, you have done exceptionally well on that part.

On the improving part of the build, have you thought about making Harvey wield twin Katars? It loses some flavor, which is a pity and Heavy Blade Oppurtunity would be out which is sad, too. However Harvey could save quite a bunch of feats in the process and trades just one damage die size for another High Crit.

That'd probably be a major change and I'd rather not see Harvey modified so heavily but I find myself quite curious about your reasons for favoring this particular build in case you have already pondered such alternatives.

I like the HBO with Twin Strike setup I have with Harvey. Especially once Divine Retribution is figured into the equation, that's a lot of potentially hurting OAs there.

Sorry, I dont think this works.....

Although you are a Warrior of the Wild, the multiclass feat does not say you can specialize in Archer Ranger or Two-Blade Ranger, so you don't get Two-Blade Fighting Style - so you don't qualify for any powers that are specifically needing, Two-Blade Fighting Style , you only qualify for general Ranger Powers....

sorry.

Ranger Powers don't have a specific fighting style requirement attached to them, only that they must be performed while wielding two weapons or using a bow. Only Ranger PPs have a fighting style restriction, and since Harvey is Paragon Multiclassing anyway it's a moot point.

This is interesting, especially like the simple interpretation with Cleave. I'll look at most of it later on.

Although at 15th level, probably going to ask what others would ask at some point. At 15th level, how come no "Glorious Chainsaw Method"? Ranger, pg 109. I think ye know the one I mean.

Ah. The Orcus Killer Move (not so much now, I guess). Yeah, that's a thing that could be worked out. It's certainly a powerful attack, and more powerful than Dragon's Fangs if all the attacks hit. I might look into that.

Thanks for the feedback guys! Keep it coming!

It (first 11 levels, didn't pay attention past it) looks good to me. Personally, I would have taken TWF and TWD as my first two feats. I haven't had a chance to analyse all of the options in detail, but it would seem that going into paragon multiclassing to a ranger is a good option. With Twin Strike, you can mark multiple more creatures than with just one weapon. It's too bad that by starting as a fighter, you cannot take advantage of Heavy Blade opportunity and Twin Strike because your off-hand weapon cannot be a heavy blade. There are no heavy blades with the off-hand property. I guess that would be too good.

Stuntman wrote:

It (first 11 levels, didn't pay attention past it) looks good to me. Personally, I would have taken TWF and TWD as my first two feats. I haven't had a chance to analyse all of the options in detail, but it would seem that going into paragon multiclassing to a ranger is a good option. With Twin Strike, you can mark multiple more creatures than with just one weapon. It's too bad that by starting as a fighter, you cannot take advantage of Heavy Blade opportunity and Twin Strike because your off-hand weapon cannot be a heavy blade. There are no heavy blades with the off-hand property. I guess that would be too good.

Actually, I believe that if I start Twin Strike off with the Scimitar, then yes, Twin Strike is usable as an OA. In fact, a lot of the build is made with that assumption.

McSmashin wrote:

Sorry, I dont think this works.....

Although you are a Warrior of the Wild, the multiclass feat does not say you can specialize in Archer Ranger or Two-Blade Ranger, so you don't get Two-Blade Fighting Style - so you don't qualify for any powers that are specifically needing, Two-Blade Fighting Style , you only qualify for general Ranger Powers....

sorry.

The paragon path option the author is using is presented on page 209 in Paragon multiclassing. Its an additional option to taking a real paragon path. Frequently considered very underpowered, it works pretty well in this case.

This allows us to avoid the class feature requirement of pathfinder and stormwarden.

Aside from that, I can't find any powers that require 2 weapon fighting style. They all require "must be wielding 2 melee weapons".

If theres anything I missed, let me know.

Lord_Ventnor wrote:

Actually, I believe that if I start Twin Strike off with the Scimitar, then yes, Twin Strike is usable as an OA. In fact, a lot of the build is made with that assumption.

So, if your primary weapon is a heavy blade, then your off-hand weapon can be anything and still use Twin Strike with Heavy Blade Opportunity? Hmmm. I guess by the RAW, it looks like it could work. Had to read it carefully. It's cool you get three OA's with Twin Fury. That's awesome.

Stuntman wrote:

So, if your primary weapon is a heavy blade, then your off-hand weapon can be anything and still use Twin Strike with Heavy Blade Opportunity? Hmmm. I guess by the RAW, it looks like it could work. Had to read it carefully. It's cool you get three OA's with Twin Fury. That's awesome.

My vote is that it's not important, but probably technically not allowed/intended. Clearly Heavy Blade Opportunity restricts you to using heavy blades, and you're violating that. The wording doesn't consider twin strike very well, but the meaning is clear. In any case, it's not a balance problem, and I'd allow it specifically for this build (though maybe not in general).

Using two weapon flurry you'd get three attacks but technically only two opportunity attacks: your first (normal) one which you happen to take with twin strike - but the individual strikes don't themselves count as OA's (if they did, you'd get infinite loops), and if twin strike hits, you may use flurry to make an OA with your off hand (which you can use heavy blade opportunity with if your off hand is a heavy blade, but cannot use twin strike for, since that's not an OA with your off-hand weapon - which is specifically mentioned.

I like this build very much. I especially like that its a Paragon multi-class build (which many view as weaker than Paragon Paths). Great Job!

Hate to crash the party here, but this build seems underpowered to me; just because it's neat and well-presented means it's a good build. TWF is strictly worse for a fighter: you're not getting the +2 AC/Reflex from wearing a heavy shield, the extra damage per [W] that you'd get from wielding a two-hander, or the reach from a polearm. Wielding a pair of weapons that are each from a different weapon group is even worse, because it then requires you to take separate paragon/epic weapon feats. To top it all off, this build uses paragon multiclassing and the Eternal Seeker destiny, which are considered (and basically are) the least powerful options when it comes to paragon paths and epic destinies respectively.

My vote is that it's not important, but probably technically not allowed/intended. Clearly Heavy Blade Opportunity restricts you to using heavy blades, and you're violating that. The wording doesn't consider twin strike very well, but the meaning is clear. In any case, it's not a balance problem, and I'd allow it specifically for this build (though maybe not in general).

Using two weapon flurry you'd get three attacks but technically only two opportunity attacks: your first (normal) one which you happen to take with twin strike - but the individual strikes don't themselves count as OA's (if they did, you'd get infinite loops), and if twin strike hits, you may use flurry to make an OA with your off hand (which you can use heavy blade opportunity with if your off hand is a heavy blade, but cannot use twin strike for, since that's not an OA with your off-hand weapon - which is specifically mentioned.

Yeah, only three attacks, all in all. Still, it's pretty good, far as I'm concerned. The attack with Two-Weapon flurry also gets Harvey's STR modifier added in because it's a basic attack.

Hate to crash the party here, but this build seems underpowered to me; just because it's neat and well-presented means it's a good build. TWF is strictly worse for a fighter: you're not getting the +2 AC/Reflex from wearing a heavy shield, the extra damage per [W] that you'd get from wielding a two-hander, or the reach from a polearm. Wielding a pair of weapons that are each from a different weapon group is even worse, because it then requires you to take separate paragon/epic weapon feats. To top it all off, this build uses paragon multiclassing and the Eternal Seeker destiny, which are considered (and basically are) the least powerful options when it comes to paragon paths and epic destinies respectively.

Harvey was never meant to be the most powerful character ever. I created him to show that yes, you CAN build a viable two-weapon defender with the current system without resorting to homebrewed feats and replacing class features.

Refreshing...

Lord_Ventnor wrote:

Harvey was never meant to be the most powerful character ever. I created him to show that yes, you CAN build a viable two-weapon defender with the current system without resorting to homebrewed feats and replacing class features.

Kudos to you! Let them squeeze rocks for extra +1s in the Optimization forum.

I'm still working my way through this and I have a couple of questions about level 3 & 4.

3. Rain of Blows: I don't see how you get three attacks with this

4. How does Thundertusk Boar Strike, which allows you to push your opponent away set them up for Opportunity Attacks? You push on YOUR turn but you can only OA if the enemy moves on HIS turn.

Did you give up your paragon path to get Twin Strike?

Or are you trying to use a retrain to work off the Human additional at-will ability?

TheDigger wrote:

I'm still working my way through this and I have a couple of questions about level 3 & 4.

3. Rain of Blows: I don't see how you get three attacks with this

4. How does Thundertusk Boar Strike, which allows you to push your opponent away set them up for Opportunity Attacks? You push on YOUR turn but you can only OA if the enemy moves on HIS turn.

Digger, the basic attack is two attacks as specified under the Attack portion:

Attack: Strength vs AC, two attacks

That's the primary attack. That's the attack any joe-schmoe fighter gets with any weapon.

If you are weilding a light blade, spear or flail AND you have 15+ Dex, you get a secondary attack.

The secondary action has one attack in it.

Primary action (2 attacks) + secondary action (1 attack) = 3 attacks.

however, that's only with a spear, light blade or flail and a Dex of 15+

Baithammer wrote:

Did you give up your paragon path to get Twin Strike?

Or are you trying to use a retrain to work off the Human additional at-will ability?

Instead of choosing a Paragon Path, you can choose to further specialize into a multiclass set up.

In order to do this, you have to have all three power swap feats before level 11.

normally, this means picking up a MC feat at 1st or 2nd, Novice at 4th, Acolyte at 8th, Adept at 10th.

Instead of getting the Paragon Path bonuses and powers you get:

replace 1 At-Will with an At-Will from the second class (at 11th level)

add one 7th or lower Encounter power from the second class (at 11th level)

add one 10th or lower Utility power from the second class (at 12th level)

add one 19th or lower Daily power from the second class (at 20th level)

Edited the build again. Now, Harvey's using his novice power at first to replace Passing Attack at first level with Dire Wolverine Strike. I did this because Lycanus helped me realize Rain of Blows is a better attack than I realized. Dire Wolverine Strike still allows Harvey to mark multiple foes like Passing Attack would have.

I suppose the only think to do now is to figure out how to work Blade Cascade, aka "Orcus Killer" aka "Glorious Chainsaw Method", aka "Ow you're repeatedly hitting me with swords stop that", aka etc. etc. If I could work it in... We'll see. It's good enough that I might want to replace one of the final daily's I'd have... Not sure how that would work out yet.

On another note, just wondering: has anyone guessed where I got the name "Harvey" from? (I'd imagine not, since it is fairly obvious).

Adslahnit wrote:

Hate to crash the party here, but this build seems underpowered to me;

I don't think it is that underpowered. I definitely think it will work fairly well. The TWD and TWF is in between sword & board and two handers. AC & Ref at +1 over 2H and damage at +1 over S&B for the cost of two feats.

Stuntman wrote:

I don't think it is that underpowered. I definitely think it will work fairly well. The TWD and TWF is in between sword & board and two handers. AC & Ref at +1 over 2H and damage at +1 over S&B for the cost of two feats.

And for the cost of no feat, you can pick up a shield for +2 AC/Reflex, or a two-hander for better damage or reach.

Tylelian wrote:

Kudos to you! Let them squeeze rocks for extra +1s in the Optimization forum.

I'd certainly be worried if a character wasn't quite up to par with a regular character, wouldn't you? It's quite hard to end up with an underpowered character in 4e, unless you go paragon multiclassing AND Eternal Seeker, which this build does.

Wait how are they underpowered exactly?

I mean... What were the options for Paragon Paths? Pit Fighter... Kensai... What are the others which I never hear about?

I don't think it's underpowered. Tru it's misssing 3 features... But he gets to do cool things anyway.

Adslahnit wrote:

And for the cost of no feat, you can pick up a shield for +2 AC/Reflex, or a two-hander for better damage or reach.

You ignore the inherent penalties to those. For that +2 AC/R, you're taking a penalty to skill checks and paying the price of not doing as much damage with a two handed weapon. For the bonus damage of a two hander, you're giving up defenses and the versatility and power you can get from taking ranger powers and keying off two different weapons with the weapon special entry.

This build uses a light blade and a heavy blade, but my own conceptions (which don't even use Ranger) have shown a stunning amount of range with heavy blade and hammer.

Vaalingrade Ashland wrote:

You ignore the inherent penalties to those. For that +2 AC/R, you're taking a penalty to skill checks and paying the price of not doing as much damage with a two handed weapon.

The armor check penalty is next to negligible, so what we're really comparing here is better damage (maul, especially a Large maul in the hands of a minotaur) or reach (glaive) compared to the +2 AC/Reflex of a sword and boarder.

Vaalingrade Ashland wrote:

For the bonus damage of a two hander, you're giving up defenses and the versatility and power you can get from taking ranger powers

Versatility? A fighter isn't gaining much by taking ranger powers.

Vaalingrade Ashland wrote:

and keying off two different weapons with the weapon special entry.

Uh-huh. You do know that you can just pick weapon powers tied to the one weapon you have, right?

Vaalingrade Ashland wrote:

This build uses a light blade and a heavy blade, but my own conceptions (which don't even use Ranger) have shown a stunning amount of range with heavy blade and hammer.

This absurdly causes MAD. Heavy blades require Strength and Dexterity for their paragon/epic weapon feats and fighter powers, while hammers require Strength and Constitution. It's not such a good deal.

Personally, don't really care if a Two-weapon fighter is "suboptimal" and what not. I mostly just care to see how possible it is to pull one off. As 4th edition ways of "balance" make it sound even if yer not as kicking as someone else, yer still going to be useful in some form. Not to mention, this isn't the Optimization forums.

Also, I think I'll have to take a look at this again, or at least in more depth. As ye are benefiting from both the 3 multiclass feats, and the Paragon multiclass to Ranger?

do you think it will be possible to apply this or a similiar multiclassing template to create a dual wielding swordmage?

Nice build, Lord_Ventnor. I like it, though I think I'd use a Flail and a Short Sword, and therefore free up some points to put in Con and Wis (especially Con...), but that's just me

@ Adslahnit: Please don't muddle up this thread with arguments. As I've said, Harvey isn't meant to be the best fighter ever. I created Harvey to show that it IS possible to create a viable Two-Weapon Fighter within the current system without resorting to wonky, unbalanced houserules.

@ Aryxbez: Well, I tried to pick Ranger Powers that would complement the defender role by inflicting some kind of penalty on the recipient of the attacks as well. A few are just pure damage, but that's because sometimes the "Glorious Chainsaw Method" is what you need. (Speaking of which, still gotta work in Blade Cascade...)

@ sitaavanu I'm not sure if that would really work, because the Swordmage's primary attribute is INT, not STR. The Fighter/Ranger synergy is there because both classes share similar primary attributes. It's an interesting idea, so you might want to try anyway. Who knows, maybe a Two-Weapon Swordmage might be an interesting character to try.

@ lordduskblade: Thanks! The Flail is an interesting idea, but I like Twin Strike + Heavy Blade Opportunity + Combat Superiority too much. A variant, though, might be a Fighter with a Longsword who boosts DEX just enough to get Heavy Blade Mastery, and then boosts other attributes. I just boosted DEX to get both Blade Masteries, and figured with DEX that high, the Scimitar might be interesting to use because of its' "Dancing Misses."

Adslahnit wrote:

I'd certainly be worried if a character wasn't quite up to par with a regular character, wouldn't you? It's quite hard to end up with an underpowered character in 4e, unless you go paragon multiclassing AND Eternal Seeker, which this build does.

Except that this character is up to par with a regular character.

Optimal is optimal, not "regular." It's actually quite hard not to end up with a sub-optimal character in 4e, as it is in any game, because you have to particularly work hard at getting an optimal character.

What's hard in 4e is creating a particularly bad character, which this build certainly is not. This build is comparable to the majority of the builds you'd see outside of the CharOp board.

And note, this is not CharOp.

Harvey, after telling his friends about the danger he presents to opponents, provingly dispatches his enemies.

Standing over their bodies, he looks to his compatriots and smiles, "and that's the rest of the story."

I just wanted to add that this is technically an optimal build. It's an optimal TWF Fighter. I think sometimes people forget what the word "optimal" means.

Lord_Ventnor wrote:

@ lordduskblade: Thanks! The Flail is an interesting idea, but I like Twin Strike + Heavy Blade Opportunity + Combat Superiority too much. A variant, though, might be a Fighter with a Longsword who boosts DEX just enough to get Heavy Blade Mastery, and then boosts other attributes. I just boosted DEX to get both Blade Masteries, and figured with DEX that high, the Scimitar might be interesting to use because of its' "Dancing Misses."

True, BUT a Flail Fighter gets to abuse Rain of Blows for its full potential, coming in for all 4d10+4*Str. I would also consider a Rapier/Short Sword combination; the Mithrendain supplement did Light Blades a lot of good. Just throwing some ideas out there (glorified brainstorming), see if I can get something to click for either of us...

lordduskblade wrote:

True, BUT a Flail Fighter gets to abuse Rain of Blows for its full potential, coming in for all 4d10+4*Str. I would also consider a Rapier/Short Sword combination; the Mithrendain supplement did Light Blades a lot of good. Just throwing some ideas out there (glorified brainstorming), see if I can get something to click for either of us...

What might be interesting is a dual-flail wielding Ranger multiclassed into Fighter. I looked at the Mithrendain article again, but none of the powers screamed "Two-Weapon Defender" at me. Although seeing the PP made me think of possibly a Rogue/Wizard or a Rogue/Warlock...

Lord_Ventnor wrote:

I like the HBO with Twin Strike setup I have with Harvey. Especially once Divine Retribution is figured into the equation, that's a lot of potentially hurting OAs there.

I believe HBO requires you use your heavy blade as your accessory for the at-will. Twin Strike has two weapon requirements, one of which certainly is not a heavy blade. HBO doesn't let you bring other accessories into the mix, just the one, and because it's just one, you can't satisfy the double weapon requirement of Twin Strike.

With two-heavy blades it might be a different story, but in -this- case you're not permitted to bring non-heavy blades in the mix with HBO.

hbo
"if you make an oa with a heavy blade, you can use an at will with the weapon keyword instead of basic melee attack" (s:203)
main weapon = heavy blade --> feat applies --> at will instead of basic melee
Twin strike --> must be wielding 2 melee weapons

i don*t see your point here.

Jwalker82 wrote:

hbo
"if you make an oa with a heavy blade, you can use an at will with the weapon keyword instead of basic melee attack" (s:203)
main weapon = heavy blade --> feat applies --> at will instead of basic melee
Twin strike --> must be wielding 2 melee weapons

i don*t see your point here.

To be clear, I think there shouldn't be a problem allowing twin strike with HBO. But certainly HBO isn't well defined and this question can't be definitively answered. HBO allows you to use an at will when you make an OA with a heavy blade - but if you do so, you're no longer making an OA with a heavy blade and fail to meet the requirements. HBO should be clarified.

If you are making an OA with a heavy blade... You can make an at-will attack instead ofa basic attack...

You'll still be maing the at-will with your heavy blade so there's no problem with Twin-Strike. If it said "You may only use heavy blades for this attack" then it would invalidate Twin-Strike.

All HBO cares about is a heavy blade in the attack.

lordduskblade wrote:

True, BUT a Flail Fighter gets to abuse Rain of Blows for its full potential, coming in for all 4d10+4*Str. I would also consider a Rapier/Short Sword combination; the Mithrendain supplement did Light Blades a lot of good. Just throwing some ideas out there (glorified brainstorming), see if I can get something to click for either of us...

Actually, dual wielding scimitar and short sword, you can use Rain of Blows to its full effect. You can pick which weapon you attack with for Rain of Blows. Thus, use the short sword (a light blade) to make the first attack and the scimitar (heavy blade) for the secondary attacks.

Thanks for all the responses everyone! My question now is, with the advent of the Tempest Fighter, is there a place for Havey on the game table? (Also still have to throw in Blade Cascade somewhere... I'll get to it eventually.)

Lord_Ventnor wrote:

Thanks for all the responses everyone! My question now is, with the advent of the Tempest Fighter, is there a place for Havey on the game table? (Also still have to throw in Blade Cascade somewhere... I'll get to it eventually.)

Yes. The ability to mark two foes with an at-will (Twin Strike) is powerful stuff. It could be worth it for that at-will alone.

Of course, until Harvey hits 11th, he'll have to make do with Dual Strike, but once he hits 11th he's free to attack two separate targets (swap dual strike with twin strike).

Cool thing is, he can use his Tempest Technique with Twin Strike!

EDIT: Btw, I'm curious, why'd you pick the name "Harvey?" The only fictional Harvey that comes to my mind is Harvey Dent, aka Two-Face (Batman villian). Certainly this isn't where you drew the name from?

squarecircle wrote:

Yes. The ability to mark two foes with an at-will (Twin Strike) is powerful stuff. It could be worth it for that at-will alone.

Of course, until Harvey hits 11th, he'll have to make do with Dual Strike, but once he hits 11th he's free to attack two separate targets (swap dual strike with twin strike).

Cool thing is, he can use his Tempest Technique with Twin Strike!

EDIT: Btw, I'm curious, why'd you pick the name "Harvey?" The only fictional Harvey that comes to my mind is Harvey Dent, aka Two-Face (Batman villian). Certainly this isn't where you drew the name from?

What about Harvey Birdman? I love that show :D

Yeah, Harvey's named after Harvey Dent, squarecircle. I was thinking "2 Weapons... 2..." and the name sprung into my mind.

Lord_Ventnor wrote:

Yeah, Harvey's named after Harvey Dent, squarecircle. I was thinking "2 Weapons... 2..." and the name sprung into my mind.

Aww, I was half-hoping for Harvey Birdman...

I was thinking Harvey Wallbanger... two weapons in a narrow corridor.

Sorry i missed this last week or so. Very well done. Having seen the preview for tempest fighter it is full of good ideas. I think theres no reason to tunr harvey away. I have already stated that I do not think you will see a full complement of two weapon powers in other threads and so having other things to fall back on is great. If you do see a full set of powers im sure there will still be options in the ranger world that will spur harvey MC friends.

I think there's possibility in here that you are missing.

The 3 powerswap feats Novice, Acolyte and Adept, allow you to reallocate the swap for free every time you level up. That gives more scope for choosing the appropriate powers at higher levels.

If you had been doing this I must have overlooked it.

Pugh_Djinn wrote:

I think there's possibility in here that you are missing.

The 3 powerswap feats Novice, Acolyte and Adept, allow you to reallocate the swap for free every time you level up. That gives more scope for choosing the appropriate powers at higher levels.

If you had been doing this I must have overlooked it.

Yeah, I've been re-swapping powers throughout Heroic and Paragon Tiers, although the Eternal Seeker Epic Destiny makes more feat-swapping pointless.

The only problem I have with the Tempest Technique is the bit about Off-hand Weapons. To get the Fighter +1 you have to use an off-hand weapon in that hand.

I guess a Tempest with Chainmail (although it only takes a Dex of 16/20/24 to beat out Chainmail and its masterwork versions as you go up in tiers of magic items). To get another +2 damage with Off-Hand weapons.

Could this be an attempt at a Katar using PC? Katars are for Rogues when they Coup d'Grace (high crit and sneak attack!), but perhaps we will see Fighters using them?

It is too bad Dual Strike can't be used to throw stuff or target two separate targets, so I also think that perhaps Paragon Multiclassing to Ranger might be a valid choice to get the superior Twin Strike power.

Oh well, I will be crossing my fingers for a +3 Proficiency Superior Weapon that is throwable (and possibly off-hand!) in the Adventurer's Vault. I would really "downgrade" my Paladin's Longsword to a +3 prof version of a Javelin if it were there. And if it is a +3 off-hand weapon (even with a 5/10 range instead of a 10/20 range) I would consider playing a [Diablo II] Barbarian, *ahem* I mean "Tempest Fighter."

JosephKell wrote:

The only problem I have with the Tempest Technique is the bit about Off-hand Weapons. To get the Fighter +1 you have to use an off-hand weapon in that hand.

I guess a Tempest with Chainmail (although it only takes a Dex of 16/20/24 to beat out Chainmail and its masterwork versions as you go up in tiers of magic items). To get another +2 damage with Off-Hand weapons.

Assuming that the feature replaces the normal +1 that the fighter gets to either one-handed or two-handed weapons from the PHB, and assuming that the at-will can be taken by any fighter and not just a "tempest" build, then if you're going for to-hit above all else you can simply pick one-handed weapons rather than "tempest", dual-wield main and off-hand weapons with that at-will power, get +1 to hit with both, and wear whatever you like. Granted your off-hand will be dealing 2 less damage per hit and you don't get the bonus feat, but you might have more flexibility in certain respects.

MikeN wrote:

Assuming that the feature replaces the normal +1 that the fighter gets to either one-handed or two-handed weapons from the PHB, and assuming that the at-will can be taken by any fighter and not just a "tempest" build, then if you're going for to-hit above all else you can simply pick one-handed weapons rather than "tempest", dual-wield main and off-hand weapons with that at-will power, get +1 to hit with both, and wear whatever you like. Granted your off-hand will be dealing 2 less damage per hit and you don't get the bonus feat, but you might have more flexibility in certain respects.

As in Harvey's Twin Strike OA's. It seems the advantage Harvey has over Tempest Fighters is that his Opportunity Attacks are better at Paragon Tier and beyond.

I got Adventurer's Vault today, and I realized that a double sword would be an excellent weapon for Harvey to wield. I don't get scimitar dance, true, but perhaps I could try enhancing his WIS or CON instead... hm...

Double Sword build is up! Take a look, everyone!

This is very good, I often find my fighter wishing he could target multiple foes. If I hadn't taken a warlord MC, I'd try this.

And here's another build. Won't fit in my OP, so here it is:

Scimitar and Spiked Shield Harvey Show

Scimitar and Spiked Shield. Big advantage of this build is Harvey's access to Tide of Iron, which is just awesome.

Lord_Ventnor wrote:

Scimitar and Spiked Shield. Big advantage of this build is Harvey's access to Tide of Iron, which is just awesome.

However, Two-weapon defense doesn't stack with a spiked shield. That makes the two-weapon fighting feat branch much less attractive, as the +1 to damage isn't particularly inspiring by itself.

Lord_Ventnor wrote:

I see a lot of people whining these days "Why can't I play a Two-Weapon Fighter?" Then other people say "Play a Ranger!" And the TW Fighters say "But it's not a Defender!"

It's entirely possible to come up with a Two-Weapon Defender.

And I say, true-that!

I helped someone make a two-weapon fighting Fighter by, you guessed it, multi-classing into ranger. Things have worked out just fine. In a fight against a single creature like an elite or solo, he kinda meh, but put him in a room with a bunch of minions and or multiple armed opponents and he'll jerk them all up. He's pretty much a walking tank-blender.

It strikes me that harvey would heavily benefit from new material released in martial power. Dual strike is certainly much more attractive than sure strike, for starters, and it might make paragon multiclassing unnecessary. What do you think?

Certainly, in any case, a double-bladed tempest build would dramatically increase damage output at the cost of just one AC in the long run (and none at low levels since you get two-weapon defense for free).

I think there is an Epic Destiny for Hurvey in MP, much bettr then Ethernal Seeker - I'm talking about Martial Archetipe, it allows more power swaps(and they are very usefull to Hurvey) also there is many powers that may fit your concept

I know this post is ways to do without Tempest, but would Tempest Technique work with Double Sword? Or would only 1/2 your attacks get the Tempest bonus damage?

Would you get the +1 attack and +2 Damage because Double Sword has Off Hand Property?

Starting at 11th level - Would like to make a Double Sword Human Fighter


Feats
1- Warrior of the Wild
1- WP Double Sword
2- Two Weapon Fighting
- Two Weapon Defense * Free
4- Toughness
6- Action Surge
8 - Weapon Focus - Double Sword
10-Blade Opportunist Marked Scourge
11- Heavy Blade Opportunist

Gnollfiend wrote:

I know this post is ways to do without Tempest, but would Tempest Technique work with Double Sword? Or would only 1/2 your attacks get the Tempest bonus damage?

Would you get the +1 attack and +2 Damage because Double Sword has Off Hand Property?

Yes, it would. It is one of the reasons the weapon is considered broken.

Squeezing in one of the new feats gives a fair amount of extra hitting power to the build.  Replace Weapon Focus (Light Blades) with Weapon Expertise (Heavy Blades) and at the same time retrain an earlier feat (I'd pick Toughness) into Weapon Master, which gives the benefit of the Focus and Expertise feats to all proficient weapons.  +2 to hit with both Light and Heavy blades (+3 from level 25 on) should be worth the 15 hit points.

Behold the power of necromancy! ^^

Seriously, you resurrected a 15 months-old thread?
/facepalm

Feb 10, 2010 -- 1:34PM, Peraion_Graufalke wrote:

Behold the power of necromancy! ^^

Seriously, you resurrected a 15 months-old thread?
/facepalm

I /facepalm your facepalm.

This thread on the CharOp links page, and this build desperately needs to be updated. There's more different ways to make a dual-wielding Fighter now than you can swing a cat at, and yet this is still the only thing listed?

Truly, the lack of updates is what is most deserving of a /facepalm. Would somebody please either fix this, or make a new dual-weapon Fighter build and put it in the links page?

May 31, 2010 -- 11:14AM, doctorhook wrote:

Feb 10, 2010 -- 1:34PM, Peraion_Graufalke wrote:

Behold the power of necromancy! ^^

Seriously, you resurrected a 15 months-old thread?
/facepalm

I /facepalm your facepalm.

This thread on the CharOp links page, and this build desperately needs to be updated. There's more different ways to make a dual-wielding Fighter now than you can swing a cat at, and yet this is still the only thing listed?

Truly, the lack of updates is what is most deserving of a /facepalm. Would somebody please either fix this, or make a new dual-weapon Fighter build and put it in the links page?

I'm with you, Hook.  I'm looking into a two-weapon defender, and I was thinking Fighter.  I've already started working on him (sans Powers), and he's looking mighty tasty already.

What's with all the thread necros lately?  Let old things die, or contribute something new and interesting to them at least.

Also, if we are talking 2 weapon melee character Ranger and HalfElf Avenger are both a good step ahead of fighter in the category of beatdowns.

Edit: And if you want to love your defender side more go Ranger|Cleric/Fighter/Tactical Warpriest.  Tons of interrupts, high defenses, a mark, heals and multi attacks. 

Hey, check that out.  That was a major necro on my part.  Wasn't intentional, I just googled for +3 d12 weapons and this thread popped up.

At any rate, I was hoping to make a 2-weapon Defender (Fighter), but not necessarily for any reason other than that I've never played a Defender and I've never played a Char with any 2-weapon attacks.  Thought I'd try something new.

Any chance that Ranger|Cleric/Fighter/Tac-Priest has a thread somewhere?

Dec 15, 2012 -- 7:49AM, ChaunceyK wrote:

Any chance that Ranger|Cleric/Fighter/Tac-Priest has a thread somewhere?

Not to my knowledge, but building one would be fairly easy.  I can help you build one if you send me a PM with your first shot (at level 11) and then we can build from there.  I don't know what level you are wanting to start at but I've made several of these builds in the past.

All things considered, maybe I'll just make a thread for my character instead.  Once you go hybrid & MC, there's just too many possibilities & I don't know that he'd improve this thread in a significant way.

I'll PM you once I get it going, I'd still like your opinion on what I've got so far.