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4 years ago ::
May 07, 2009 - 2:26PM
#21
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Date Joined:
Nov 18, 2008
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Because that's what she was in like itself. She isn't evil, she's just a person who sees achievement as the main goal of existence. Basically a Shadar-Kai in God's Clothing.
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4 years ago ::
May 07, 2009 - 3:12PM
#22
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Remember: She's a Goddess and she earned it through a struggle with Nerull. She earned control over his realm and put that guy in his place. The fact that she has to worm her way around the other members of the Pantheon to simply grab what is her right by being a God is the real travesty of the story. Plus, she has two forces working actively against her: Vecna (albeit less overtly) and Orcus.
Imagine if the U.S had fought off England, then France, Spain, Russia, Austria, Prussia said, "We still refuse to recognize your status as an independant state."
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4 years ago ::
May 07, 2009 - 3:32PM
#23
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Date Joined:
Nov 18, 2008
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And besides, under further consideration, we should have gotten clues to the RQ's attitudes. Look at the fluff for the Shadar-Kai, her greatest act of mercy was to bring a tribe of humans to a plane that snuffs out life, so they have to constantly partake in activities of great pleasure and/or pain or they simply cease to exist.
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4 years ago ::
May 07, 2009 - 3:33PM
#24
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Imagine if the U.S had fought off England, then France, Spain, Russia, Austria, Prussia said, "We still refuse to recognize your status as an independant state."
Not to mention, basically said something like, "Oh and we take half the land you own, and you can't fish these spots anymore and We will be watching you."
She was basically going to be forced to be a Sex object and instead gained power and resisted. Then, instead of doing what the god of death has rights to do "Enslaving souls and the like", shes told, Hey you can be a god of death, but the real powers you get aren't yours.
I'd be a little miffed, especially if a demon prince was out for my throne, and you also had to worry about Vecna, who is a bigger threat in my opinion, since you never know what hes up to. Unaligned means she does whats best for her, be it evil or good really. She has her own set of values which she follows, and sometimes they seem morally wrong to others, but to her, they are good in her eyes. Plus, she like many gods, dislikes undead, as they break a natural cycle.
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4 years ago ::
May 07, 2009 - 5:58PM
#25
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Date Joined:
Feb 25, 2003
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Thinking you're good and doing evil doesn't make you unaligned, it makes you evil.
And the US metaphor would be more appropriate if we took the fight all the way to Europe, executed the royal family of Britian, then claimed the entire British Empire as ours and tried to start hoarding resources to be a super power. The other nations would understandably go "woah woah, hold on there."
(The fact that we became a super power under slower circumstances notwithsanding)
Planes Wanderer
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4 years ago ::
May 07, 2009 - 6:15PM
#26
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First of all, she was already in Pluton, living (er...Being dead) there.
Two, she was selected by an evil God to be his b*tch.
Three, she fought back and won.
Four, she was cheated out of her rightful and complete apotheosis.
Seriously, Tiamat and Bahamut emerged from the blood of another God and are accepted. I'm not sure about the others, but Asmodeus has only lasted so long because he lives in his own stronghold of the Nine Hells. Seems to me the Gods simply didn't want any more competition.
In that instance, name one transgression she made against a God other than Nerull. Hell, who was she TAKING the Winter and Fate domains from? Doesn't the latter simply lead to her own domain of Death anyway?
She's trying to gain her power because it's HERS, she should have it because she is a Goddess like anyone else. How is it fair that she fought her battles, like Vecna fought Kas (or whatever) and goes on plotting and being otherwise sureptitious?
In any case, she has enemies. Powerful enemies. And she abandoned Pluton for her survival. Can you argue against that? When you've lost everything once, gained extreme power, and then have it slip from your hands once more?
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4 years ago ::
May 07, 2009 - 7:21PM
#27
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Date Joined:
Feb 25, 2003
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I don't argue that she wasn't justified in fighting Nerull. I argue she did it for ultimately selfish reasons and the manner in which she did it was evil.
She didn't take the souls of Pluton from Nerull to weaken him, or to free the souls, she did it to grab power so she wouldn't have to answer to anyone or anything. When she DID free the souls under her dominion, she only did it for power, and she didn't even free all of them, just enough to make her as powerful as needed to win.
And the power she WAS looking for, need I remind you, was NERULL'S. The EVIL god of the dead. She wanted to replace an EVIL GOD in the exact same position. She wanted dominion over dead, not to free them from an evil god's grasp.
Also, Asmodeus "lasted so long" because he's already been punished. He and his devils can't leave Baator unless summoned. And Vecna never killed a god to gain godhood. He's left the gods well enough alone, except the Raven Queen. Tiamat and Bahamut never threatened any gods either, except maybe each other.
So what you have here is a mortal who strives to replace the evil god of death, because she's personally threatened with degredation. When she gets there, she doesn't try to do much better (See, enslavement). She's just as Evil as Nerull, the only difference is that the rest of the pantheon was able to keep her from being just as powerful as him.
Whether I think the Raven Queen should be any of this is not what I'm saying. I'm saying she shouldn't be evil and despotic and craving power and enslaving her own worshipers. Whoever wrote that blurb on her clearly didn't get it. She's supposed to be dispassionate with an air of lost love. Dark, gloomy, mysterious. Not power hungry, ambitious, and greedy. There's supposed to be an air of tragedy about her. And now you want me to swallow that "the only tragedy is her not rightfully being just as bad as Nerull." Oh, so sorry, I didn't realize I was supposed to have sympathy for tyrants.
Planes Wanderer
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4 years ago ::
May 07, 2009 - 7:29PM
#28
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Date Joined:
Nov 18, 2008
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She's not evil, Nerull wanted to topple all the god and to do so mercilessly killed people to use them as fuel for his plans.
The RQ, a Queen in life, refused to be a bitc# for Nerrul and toppled him. Also, it is apparent, that she prides herself in attaining power for the sole purpose of attaining power. Th article mentions nothing of her wanting to oppress anyone. The only people enslaved to her are her most devout followers, people who want to be mindless yes-bots to her.
It's obvious that part of her dogma and behavior is the belief that achievement is the sole measuring stick of success in life. That's why she's the patron goddess of a society that is purely meritocratic and devoid of warm feelings.
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4 years ago ::
May 08, 2009 - 2:45AM
#29
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Thinking you're good and doing evil doesn't make you unaligned, it makes you evil.
notwithsanding)
That's entirely opinion. Evil isn't a universal concept and never has been. Look at cannibalism, accepted in many civilizations as appropriate behavior, yet in our own society, it is considered an evil and barbaric act.
To state somethings evil, because you say its evil doesn't work. She was enslaved by an evil god, tried to gain power however she could (Not saying this is good) and broke the chains. Then the pantheon basically says, "We don't want you being powerful, so we won't let you be even if you have done what is required."
Being unaligned as I stated, means following your own rules. In D&D, enslaving is considered wrong and evil (So says the fluff anyway) However, the Raven queen is also against wanton destruction and killing, for she understands life and it's balance. Her decree is not Slaughter everyone so I may gain power, its punish those who try to ignore the natural order. (The aspect of death is her domain now, and is an accepted idea.)
The ends don't justify the means, hence her Unaligned state instead of EVIL. She could be argued as leaning more to the evil side, but not too much to not be judged evil.
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4 years ago ::
May 08, 2009 - 1:34PM
#30
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Date Joined:
Feb 25, 2003
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Being unaligned as I stated, means following your own rules. In D&D, enslaving is considered wrong and evil (So says the fluff anyway) However, the Raven queen is also against wanton destruction and killing, for she understands life and it's balance. Her decree is not Slaughter everyone so I may gain power, its punish those who try to ignore the natural order. (The aspect of death is her domain now, and is an accepted idea.)
Of course it isn't. She wouldn't gain power. Death comes to everyone sooner or later, so she has as much power as "Death" will give her. However, once she gains ownership of "the Dead" then you better believe that she'd be up for as much slaughter as she could get away with. All so she would gain ownership of the souls of the dead that don't belong to any other god. All for power.
THATS the impression that that excerpt is giving off.
Like I said, I'm not going to cry any tears for her that she couldn't get her way and get the power she was "rightfully" due from murdering Nerull (Nerull was one of the original gods. The only person with "the right" to his power was him). The power over all unclaimed souls was evil, typified by the EVIL mass of ideas that embodied it, Nerull. Raven Queen wants that power.
(Also, if following your own rules was Unaligned, then Asmodeus would be king of Unaligned.)
Planes Wanderer
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