Like it was mentioned above. Hybrid vigor. That sort of thing happens in real life, so why not use it to explain half-elves.
Personally I don't think that the races need to be built optimally for what seems to be a class that might be common for them (because it by no means has to be, you could decide that generally, tieflings avoid it like the plague to escape the prejudice of their beginnings in your world if you so choose). Plus, because of some of the things that were put forth already, I think the Cha bonus suits them fine. As to it should being a Con bonus, I thought about this: They are descended from nobles and aristocrats and such. Last time I checked, these tend to NOT be people of sturdy stature or tough bodies or what not.
First off, if you want to understand the Tieflings, you really should know their origin. 2nd Edition Planescape, to be precise. I know, I know.. "why should I have to read old editions to understand this newer edition when it should be stand-alone to begin with," right? Well, tough luck. If you want to be a D&D entusiast, you really should know the previous editions.
Viatos wrote:
Look at the tiefling characteristics list: cunning, disquieting, imposing, mysterious, proud, rebellious, self-reliant, sinister, sly, and unconventional. Basically, a race of arrogant, nasty schemers that make you nervous. Which of those traits suggests charismatic to you? Imposing? Dragonborn are noble and half-elves are charming, but the best side of a tiefling is they act like they're better then you. Which is odd, because...
To answer your question: mysterious, proud, self-reliant, sly, and unconventional all point to being charismatic to me. Sometimes rebellious can be. Sinister, maybe. Imposing, not so much, but it can be.
Tiefling characteristic list: Sly, sexy, and a little sinister, self-assured, self-reliant, commanding and confident (or scary and arrogant, depending on your view).
These are from the Wizards Presents Classes and Races book. All these seem to suggest someone slightly more charismatic.
If we go back further, to 2nd edition, the origin of the Tiefling, that had to rely on their natural charisma to survive. Their ability to trick and deceive was well known, and it takes a charismatic person to constantly be able to trick others, to pull off the bluff, per say.
Viatos wrote:
Everyone hates tieflings. Everyone knows they're demonic, they look scary, they wrecked the dragonborn (a race portrayed as a bunch of honorable, noble samurai ronin), and their personalities probably leave a lot of bad impressions. Everybody loves half-elves and respects dragonborn, but tieflings are written with social prejudice in mind right off the bat.
Just because everyone hates them doesn't mean they are not charismatic. That's a cultural reference, and has no bearing to the racial traits. The looks are debatable. You think they look scary, I think they look unbelievably sexy with their horns and tails. Looks are only a portion of what it means to be charismatic, and by far beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
You could say, "Everyone loves the Dragonborn." That doesn't make them more charismatic (naturally, that is), it just means that in the culture you are refering to, they are well liked.
If you were to remove the tieflings from a culture where they are unliked, and put them in a culture where they are beloved, would this make more or less charismatic? The proper answer is neither.
Viatos wrote:
Tieflings aren't pretty. Granted, Charisma is not just about looks, but usually it indicates strong, compelling personalities (tieflings might be strong, but compelling they ain't...unlike, for example, the darkly beautiful drow, who are evil but sexy about it) or overwhelming good looks or both. Tieflings don't win any nice guy or leadership awards...and they're not attractive, either, at least by racial standards. They're scary horn-headed demon-people with tails. In fact, the only race that logically MIGHT find them aesthetically pleasing, the dragonborn (horns and tails might not be such a turnoff?) are both the least likely to look for aesthetics in other races and the most likely to hate a tiefling on sight because, you know, Arkhosia is no more.
They aren't pretty? Again, simply a matter of opinion. I find their concept quite attractive.
However, you immediately contradict your argument by recognizing that charisma is more than just looks. (I know, I know, you were explaining.)
The drow have always creeped me out. I've never liked them, and don't find them charismatic in the least bit. Does this make them naturally more or less charismatic than other races? No. It's just my opinion of them. I think Drow are creepy little bastards. Especially with their wierd little obssession with spiders. Ew.
Nice guy awards has very little to do with being charismatic. Don't believe me? Ask any nice guy in high school how many dates he's been on compared to the "bad guy." Immature state in our lives? Yes. But it doesn't change the fact that nice guys aren't always the one's people are attracted to. They are attracted to self-assurance and self-reliance. Confidence. And that is what the tieflings have. Naturally.
Viatos wrote:
Tieflings are not just the original warlocks, they're the original infernal pact warlocks. But they're not all that great at it. Their racial feat for +win to fire and fear powers is as useful for the multitude of fear keywords among star and fey pact powers and the handful of fire keywords among the same as it is for an infernal pact warlock. And most of an infernal pact warlock's powers target Fort, the strongest save, or Reflex, the second-strongest. That extra +2 Con means a lot to them. They can't really afford to skip it.
So you're saying that a character race should be designed around the mechanics of a class, and not around the flavor of the race? This seems a bit off, as it is a role-playing game, and flavor should mean everything. If you want to play mechanics, go play a video game.
Viatos wrote:
Tieflings have horns and tails and demonic blood and they're fire-resistant. It makes sense that they'd be tough, too.
They are tough. They're just not naturally more tough than a human, per say. The fire resistance makes them tougher than a human, but the horns and tail (aesthetic features) should really have nothing to do with how tough they are.
draconbitz wrote:
Argument for +2 Con for Tieflings:
Cause then they can be good Infernal Warlocks
Argument against it:
They're not one of the hardier races. They get the +2 to Charisma because they are silver tongued, tricky, and somewhat manipulating. People don't quite -trust- them, but the Tiefling -knows- it and can -still- trick you out of your wallet.
3.x was the -oddity- in giving them a penalty to Charisma. The original 2nd edition Tieflings got a bonus to Charisma.
Thank you. At least somebody got it right.
From the Planewalker's Handbook (2nd ed): "But rather than withdraw into individual hermitages, tieflings challange the multiverse with everything in their independant spirits. Determined to create their own fates, they dare things others might not even dream of and defy anything that stands in their way."
To me, that screams natural charisma. As such, the original Tiefling got a +1 to Int and Cha, and a -1 to Str and Wis.
The flavor given in the 2nd Ed Monstrous Compendium (for Planescape) makes out Tieflings to be intelligent, clever, silver-tongued, and charismatic. "They are often confused with alu-fiends, erinyes, incubi, and succubi (which they'll often forgive), but never call a tiefling a bastard or a half-breed. He'll take it personal-like. Plane-touched is the word, or 'sir' or 'lady.' :D
They're also shown as slightly weaker in physical build, which they make up for with intelligence:
"Because tieflings are not a brawny race, their weapons are light and quick, depending on speed and sharpness to make up for what they lack in weight and raw cleaving power. Despite fragile appearance, tiefling weaponry is exceptionally deadly, not least because it is often poisoned."
All in all, I'm saying that the flavor of the tiefling was that they were intelligent and charismatic loners, who were misunderstood and hated by many. 4th definately got the flavor back, and that shouldn't be changed just because it'll make a class more optimized.
thanks for the thoughtful and thorough contribution to this discussion. much appreciated.
i will reiterate my second suggestion, in light of your convincing argument for leaving the tiefling stats untouched:
MaximumHavoc wrote:
i think i have an even simpler and less pervasively game altering house rule.
the diabolic sources of the infernal warlocks granted an additional boon to tieflings: tieflings may use charisma in place of constitution for all infernal warlock powers.
although it is out of 4E character for a feat, i would even be willing to charge a feat for this boon for tieflings only.
Not to be nit-picky, but Tieflings aren't Demonic, they're Infernal. Detail, I know, but still.
As for the Cha bonus, well, being pretty, trusted, and polite isn't what charisma is all about in 4e. It also covers your ability to subtly manipulate people. You don't pay someone you don't like a blatantly untrue compliment to be polite, you do it to be manipulative. Tieflings strike me as a type of, "power behind the throne," type. They're not good at charming everybody, granted, but they're good at finding that one person who's in good standing, and getting on their good side, so nobody can mess with them.
I agree with this. I always thought of Charisma as 'force of personality. How well you do in social situations based on your abilities, and not preconceptions against you. As evidence I point to the Intimidate skill: Intimidate is about being feared, mean, and frightening, the exact opposite from the standard nice friendly trusted that people typically associate with charisma. Why is this? Because intimidate is bassed of of your ability to read others, and control your own body language in social situations.
I commonly view Emperor Palpatine from Star Wars as having high charisma. WHY? Well, he wasn't trustworthy, certainly not friendly, and most definatly not pretty. But he knew how to work a crowed, and he managed to turn Anakin from an angsty teen to a babykiller in no time flat. Through use of inuendo, reading vocal inflections and body language, and controling his actions accordingly, he was able to control a great many people.
NOW, with that all said and done, there is no reason you couldn't go all the way back to 2nd ed. Tieflings. 2nd ed tieflings, for those of you who don't know, had a random table where people rolled to discover what their traits were. The theory being that there were three different kinds of fiends, and the combonation with mortal blood created weird and unexpected side effects. This could range from cosmetic (we had a tiefling who looked like an anthropomorphic cat) to abilities (we had a tiefling with strong Acid resistance, but no fire resistance). You could adapt the old planescape table, or make your own, or whatever. OR, you could simply make them human in that they get +2 to any one stat. Just suggestions, that you can leave or take, as you see fit.
ON A SEPERATE NOTE? What's re-imagined about the Githzerai? I didn't notice a huge difference. They are still a reclusive race that broke from the Githyanki at the time of Zerthamon, and live in limbo (the elemental chaos), and devoted to the idea of not being slaves. Seems that they are still the same guys to me.
I agree with this. I always thought of Charisma as 'force of personality. How well you do in social situations based on your abilities, and not preconceptions against you. As evidence I point to the Intimidate skill: Intimidate is about being feared, mean, and frightening, the exact opposite from the standard nice friendly trusted that people typically associate with charisma. Why is this? Because intimidate is bassed of of your ability to read others, and control your own body language in social situations.
I commonly view Emperor Palpatine from Star Wars as having high charisma. WHY? Well, he wasn't trustworthy, certainly not friendly, and most definatly not pretty. But he knew how to work a crowed, and he managed to turn Anakin from an angsty teen to a babykiller in no time flat. Through use of inuendo, reading vocal inflections and body language, and controling his actions accordingly, he was able to control a great many people.
NOW, with that all said and done, there is no reason you couldn't go all the way back to 2nd ed. Tieflings. 2nd ed tieflings, for those of you who don't know, had a random table where people rolled to discover what their traits were. The theory being that there were three different kinds of fiends, and the combonation with mortal blood created weird and unexpected side effects. This could range from cosmetic (we had a tiefling who looked like an anthropomorphic cat) to abilities (we had a tiefling with strong Acid resistance, but no fire resistance). You could adapt the old planescape table, or make your own, or whatever. OR, you could simply make them human in that they get +2 to any one stat. Just suggestions, that you can leave or take, as you see fit.
ON A SEPERATE NOTE? What's re-imagined about the Githzerai? I didn't notice a huge difference. They are still a reclusive race that broke from the Githyanki at the time of Zerthamon, and live in limbo (the elemental chaos), and devoted to the idea of not being slaves. Seems that they are still the same guys to me.
Wow. Exactly what I was trying to say, but much more elegant!
3E tieflings bugged me because they not only took away the random tables that made them so awesome, but they changed the whole flavor of the race by changing their natural abilities (-cha?). With 4th, I can stay with the idea that they're a race, and I like how they've 'evolved' from humans that made a bargain. But the big thing was they brought the flavor back.
What I think I'll do is keep them as they are, they're a unique race that I like very much (in 4th). However, if the characters ever travel to the planes, they'll see what other tieflings look like. These one's aren't based on an empire that made a deal. That was just one community. :D
Per the Gith, I can appreciate a man who knows his history.
Wow. Exactly what I was trying to say, but much more elegant!
3E tieflings bugged me because they not only took away the random tables that made them so awesome, but they changed the whole flavor of the race by changing their natural abilities (-cha?). With 4th, I can stay with the idea that they're a race, and I like how they've 'evolved' from humans that made a bargain. But the big thing was they brought the flavor back.
What I think I'll do is keep them as they are, they're a unique race that I like very much (in 4th). However, if the characters ever travel to the planes, they'll see what other tieflings look like. These one's aren't based on an empire that made a deal. That was just one community. :D
Per the Gith, I can appreciate a man who knows his history.
I thank you for the compliment, sir.
Hmmm, let's get on building that random Tiefling table now . . .
I've been noticing that the most common defense for +2Cha is that the tiefling is sly, crafty, good a bluff, etc...to which i have to agree, but this also leaves out a very important aspect of charisma in that it is important for more things than just skill checks. Don't forget that inspiring warlords and defensive paladins both use charisma. Now, If i were to roll a tiefling paladin, that charisma bonus would help me essentially be a crusader of justice, which is pretty silly considering my charisma bonus is supposed to be coming from trickery.
I say that the Tiefling race should be changed to a +2Con, +2Int race to reflect its demonic heritage and leave the entire sly, deceptive flavor in the hands of their +2 Bluff, +2 Stealth bonuses.
I'd can't say I really view Tieflings as a hardy race, not really a +2 con one. The charisma makes sense though. They weren't well loved by many of the races. Sure, the dragonborn respect them for their strength (the OP has got how dragonborn relate to Tieflings wrong), but others, not so much. So Tieflings, with their empire gone, had to learn to manipulate others, to get along. Those that did are responsible for a higher percent of the next generation. Those that don't, got killed or lead less stable lives.
Just likes dwarves got to be what they are from pounding on rocks all day and elves got speedy due to running from tree to tree to dole out hugs, Tieflings got charming to survive.
As to the Infernal warlocks and Tieflings should be best at that, RP justification, remember that Infernal warlocks are not the original warlocks. The Tiefling race made a pact with Asmodeus. That pact made Tieflings what they are. What that pact's powers may be, well, it isn't in the PHB. Could very well be cha or int based. Could even be strength based. But until Asmodeus pact gets added to some source book, we won't know.
And all that aside, I think it is fine there's good reasons to pick races besides Tieflings for Infernal warlocks.
Now, If i were to roll a tiefling paladin, that charisma bonus would help me essentially be a crusader of justice, which is pretty silly considering my charisma bonus is supposed to be coming from trickery.
Two things on this. First, paladins are not required to be good anymore. You can be a Paladin of Sehanine. Or Lolth. Or Asmodeus, if you want to be true to your race's past. Second, if you did want to be a goody-goody paladin, the same sense that helps you spot things that you can exploit (and avoid things you can't) can also be used to do the reverse, to appeal to nobility to overcome the greed, instead of greed to overcome the nobility. Or you can go the torn hero route, you want to do good, but sometimes your means aren't as pure as your ends.
i have become convinced that +2 cha is more appropriate than +2 con for tieflings.
i still feel strongly that tielfings should have the best synergy, among the standard races, with the infernal warlock class (remember elves and rangers, eladrin and wizards, halflings and rogues).
therfore, until i see something more appropriate, i will stick with my special boon for tieflings.
i cannot say enough times that, as i am looking at tieflings and thinking about the best warlock fit and seeing fey locks, it KILLS me.
