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4 years ago ::
Jan 02, 2009 - 1:34PM
#111
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Date Joined:
Sep 11, 2005
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I don't think the problem lies in the Tiefling's stat array...but in the Infernal Pact Warlock's stat requirements.
It seems that the Warlock was initially designed to use Cha as a primary stat, with Int (Infernal) and Dex (Fey) as secondary stats.
Blah. Just houserule Cha as the primary stat for Infernal Pact Warlocks, and this issue will resolve itself.
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4 years ago ::
Jan 04, 2009 - 9:42PM
#112
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Not to go off topic, but I couldn't help but notice people bringing up the Drow and Lolth being CE in previous editions as a problem of similar magnitude, and for some reason it bugs me enough to want to just make a quick explanation on that.
See, Lolth started out as Correlon's consort. I forget what the impetus was, but she did something very bad, which got her kicked out of his court and directly into the Abyss, where he made her into a demon (she would eventually regain godhood, but her demonic traits would merely assist her in her rise to deityhood rather than hinder her).
Anyway. Now, Lolth and her elves are a special breed of CE. We can clearly see the evil, but a lot of people seem to miss the chaos. And they miss it because of the seemingly structured society they enjoy.
Firstly, the Drow modeled their society on their goddess' rules. And her rules were pretty arbitrary. She started out CG and ended up a CE demon. Being a demon (and CE) does not mean you can't plan or be intricate in things, it just means you're more prone to spontaneity and destruction (in the case of demons). So her rules were very intricate, very detailed, but also very, very random in their purpose.
The Drow followed these rules, primarily because of the authority of their goddess, but also because of the whole getting turned into a Drider thing that sometimes happened if they screwed up and displeased Lolth. As such, they learned that they were better off following the rules. However, their culture rewards bending the rules to their very extreme - such that backstabbing and assassinating a competitor is lauded in private, and often rewarded if one is not caught.
They may be a structured race, but that does not make them lawful.
Anyway, back to debating the merits and detriments of changing the racial bonuses of a race to match a class path that happens to have come into existence after them, and therefore would make no thematic sense to have perfect synergy with their bonuses.
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4 years ago ::
Jan 05, 2009 - 12:53AM
#113
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Date Joined:
Jan 25, 2007
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Really? My tiefling does not get it when casting Vampiric Embrace. Is it some short of bug?
If tieflings get a Con bonus, then they need to lose their Int bonus and access to Hellfire Blood so they don't become the only race anyone ever picks for Hellocks.
I know others have said it before and been largely ignored, but say it with me anyway: Hellfire Blood. Hellfire Blood. Hellfire Blood.
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4 years ago ::
Jan 05, 2009 - 1:13AM
#114
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Date Joined:
Aug 11, 2006
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> If tieflings get a Con bonus, then they need to lose their Int bonus and
> access to Hellfire Blood so they don't become the only race anyone ever
> picks for Hellocks.
Seconded. This is the basic problem with the premise of the OP: If you make them the "best" infernal warlocks by giving them a +2 Con bonus, then you've pretty much marked the infernal warlock as a tiefling-only option. This also flies in the face of 4E's design principles in that no one race should be the "best" at a given class (and subtype); some may be better than others at a given one, but there should always be at least a few that make equally viable "good" choices.
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4 years ago ::
Jan 05, 2009 - 1:25AM
#115
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Date Joined:
Jan 25, 2007
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> If tieflings get a Con bonus, then they need to lose their Int bonus and
> access to Hellfire Blood so they don't become the only race anyone ever
> picks for Hellocks.
[Snip]
This also flies in the face of 4E's design principles in that no one race should be the "best" at a given class (and subtype); some may be better than others at a given one, but there should always be at least a few that make equally viable "good" choices.
Plus, nobody has proven that Tieflings aren't already the best Hellocks around.
Lets look at the Tiefling's assets, both as a Hellock and as a Warlock.
Tiefling Hellock Assets:
-Bonus to Secondary Stat (+2 Int)
-Racial Feat that gives them an effective +2 state bonus with the majority of Infernal Pact powersm (Hellfire Blood)
-Bonus to the other Primary Stat for the Warlock Class as a whole (+2 Cha)
Now these alone make Tieflings almost the undisputed best Hellocks. But if you add in:
Other Tiefling Assets
- +1 Atk bonus against bloodied foes (Foes will be bloodied half the time)
- Encounter power that gives +1 to atk and +cha mod to damage if the tiefling was hit the previous turn (A hellock doesn't care if hes hit; he has temp hp to soak up a lot of the damage)
- +2 Bonuses to two skills, one of which is a Warlock class skill (Bluff +2. Stealth +2)
-Fire Resistance 5+1/2 Level against the element their pact uses the most (fire)
- Vision: Low-Light
At this point, its hard to find anything that competes with a Tiefling out of the box for an optimal Warlock of any kind, and its hard for any other race to compete with a Tiefling Hellock. Heck, i think Tieflings are actually the single best race in the PHB, but thats just me.
Anyone care to refute the evidence, or has the point actually been taken?
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4 years ago ::
Jan 05, 2009 - 5:48PM
#116
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Date Joined:
Jan 31, 2008
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i have always felt the the Half-Elf and Tiefling stat block bonuses should be switched. Half-Elf: +2 Int., +2 Chr. Tiefling: +2 Con., +2 Chr. For Half Elves, Int. & Chr.: *offers a more interesting range of stat choices for Dilettante *makes it easier to use the Half-Elf race as written for Half-Eladrin characters. *gives statistical incentive to dabble in arcane classes, a tendancy common with Half-Elves in all previous editions. *would make them the best Bards, as they likely should be. For Tieflings, Con. & Chr.: *would by far make them the best Infernal Locks, as they should be. *gives greater incentive for them to multi-class into Warlock, very much fitting the flavor of the race, especially when done as a Paladin. *still gives statistical advantage for arcane classes such as Artificers, Bards & Staff Implement Wizards. *adds incentive to choose from a wider range of defender classes. My two cents 
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4 years ago ::
Jan 05, 2009 - 6:20PM
#117
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Date Joined:
Aug 11, 2006
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> *would by far make them the best Infernal Locks, as they should be.
As they should NOT be - it's flat-out against 4E's design principles.
Halflings are themed as amazing rogues. Eladrin are themed as spectacular wizards. Are they "by far the best" at those classes? No, they're not - they're among the better choices, but 4E does not operate on the assumption that a certain race should outshine all others at a given class or class subtype.
As for the thematic appropriateness of Int/Cha for tieflings, it fits them perfectly. The people of Bael Turath were noted for being cunning and manipulative, as are the devils that they made their pacts with. Int/Cha represents that. Con does not.
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4 years ago ::
Jan 05, 2009 - 6:56PM
#118
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Date Joined:
Jan 31, 2008
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I agree to disagree.
A supernatural vigor, aka Con., derived from their infernal heritage makes perfect sense. A manipulative will to power is Charisma, which they have. However, there is nothing that suggests Tieflings should be smarter than anyone else. or that their magic was inherently more sophisticated than normal humans before making infernal pacts. They were humans duped & cursed by devils in their lust for power, many loosing their souls the process - that is not a pedigree of genius by any measure.
There are races which statistically excel at certain class builds. Two examples are:
*Elf - Archer Rangers
*Halfling - Artful Dodger Rogues
Game design does give statistical incentive for iconic race & class combinations. Many agree that Tieflings as Infernal Locks should be one of them and that Half-Elves making better Infernal Warlocks than Tieflings is counter intuitive. The power creep of new classes and magic items will offset a Con bonus for Tieflings, with either Int or Chr paired with it.
Obviously the game designers don't agree with me either, but that's what house rules and forum discussions are for.
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4 years ago ::
Jan 05, 2009 - 7:54PM
#119
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Date Joined:
Sep 11, 2005
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Halflings are themed as amazing rogues. Eladrin are themed as spectacular wizards. Are they "by far the best" at those classes?
From a pure statistical, mechanical perspective, the following race/class combinations really have no equal.
Elf Archer Ranger
Halfing Artful Dodger Rogue
Dragonborn Inspiring Warlord
Eladrin Wand Wizard
I can break this down if you like.
Elf Archer Ranger
-+2 to both primary and secondary stats
-Shift over natural terrain (the ranger shifts a lot)
-Automatic reroll (great for those damaging ranged dailys)
-+2 Nature/Perception, two skills that are Ranger role primary
Halfling Artful Dodger
-+2 to both primary and secondary stats
-+2 AC to OA. Stacks with Artful Dodger class feature
-Reroll attack that hits (making Artful Dodgers even more "dodgy")
-+2 Acrobatics/Thievery, two skills that are Rogue role primary
Dragonborn Inspiring Warlord
-+2 to both primary and secondary stats
-Minion controlling encounter ability (keyed off Str, the Warlord primary stat)
-+1 Hit when Bloodied (Warlords should be "in the mix", and this feature encourages melee involvement)
-+2 History/Intimidate, two skills that are Warlord role primary
Eladrin Wand Wizard
-+2 to both primary and secondary stats
-Encounter ability designed as an escape route, i.e. non-melee oriented
-+2 Arcana/History, two skills that are Wizard role primary
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If we attempt to substitute another race in any of my above examples, then the combination will simply lack all the 'cohesive' factors found in my samples.
i.e. Tiefling Wand Wizard instead of Eladrin
-No bonus to Dex, no escape oriented encounter, no bonus to class role skills
Halfling Archer Ranger
-No bonus to Wis, no offensive reroll ability, no bonus to class role skills
Elven Artful Dodger
-No bonus to Cha, no defensive reroll, no bonus to class role skills (Perception MAYBE...but that is obviously a Ranger primary)
Half-Elf Inspiring Warlord
-No bonus to Str, no minion clearing ability keyed off primary attribute (creative use of dilettante may help), bonus to only one class role skill
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Lets compare my initial archetype builds to a Tiefling Infernal Warlock
-No bonus to Con (primary stat), Encounter that keys off of Cha (non-stat for Infernal Warlocks), bonus to skills that are not Infernal Warlock role specific (Bluff is Cha based, Stealth isn't even a class skill)
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My initial four "Stereotypical" combinations are ready "out of the box". No funky builds, no feat placements, no class work arounds are necessary to make those race/class combos work EXTREMELY well.
The Tiefling Infernal Warlock, on the other hand, takes some tricky work to make "optimized". While this is hardly impossible (I'm playing a Tiefling Infernal Warlock in a game), it isn't "Neat and Tidy", as a "Stereotypical" class/race combo should be.
Does the Elven Archer Ranger need a feat and funky stat placement to excel in their role? What about the Halfling Artful Dodger or the Dragonborn Inspiring Warlord?
No, they don't. They have everything already "in place" to make the perfect race/class combo that, "iconically", works for them.
All we (the Tiefling Infernal Warlock Fan Club) want is the same mechanical placement for our beloved horned buddies.
Does that make sense?
I don't believe I can elucidate my point any clearer.
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4 years ago ::
Jan 06, 2009 - 12:31AM
#120
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Date Joined:
Mar 17, 2001
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i.e. Tiefling Wand Wizard instead of Eladrin
The tragic is that Tieflings with Hellfire blood can become better wizards than warlocks. Especially in the Realms, a Tiefling Wizard with maxed out int (20) coming from Thay with Hellfire blood deals insane amounts of damage, hitting almost every time... (lvl 1: 1d4+6 against everybody around your Flaming Sphere buhahaha....) ... and he also has pretty decent hit points :D
Ceterum censeo scrinium puniceum esse delendam
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