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5 years ago ::
Aug 20, 2008 - 7:11PM
#91
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Date Joined:
Jul 31, 2008
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In the Monster Manual, the entries for Tiefling both display inordinately high Dexterity and Charisma with Constitution following closely behind. Both Tiefling builds shown have an Intelligence of 13 suggesting that Intelligence is NOT a high priority for the race.
I think Charisma was determined to be sort of the dump stat for when the designers didn't know what else to build. Let's look at the races that got Charisma bonuses.
Dragonborn - Because....?.... Yeah, exactly.
Half-Elf - Okay, it sort of makes sense here.
Halfling - In order to support the merchant concept?
Tiefling - For... manipulation maybe?
Doppleganger - They mimic others, so maybe a Charisma is fine.
Drow - Really?!! Drow are Charismatic but Elves and Eldarin are not?
Gnome - Because they... are Fey Warlocks?
Goblin - WTF?! Okay, they might be good at Bluffing, but all monster entries have a Charisma of 8.
Hobgoblin - For... leading Goblins... who has a higher Charisma than they should?
It really doesn't make sense on half of these and when you consider that we are to believe that all of these races are more Charismatic than the Eldarin who seem to come off as the leader race who unites and leads everyone else, it really doesn't seem to work out.
Anyway-- based on their monster manual entry I have to think that Tieflings are meant to have Dexterity and Charisma or Dexterity and Constitution.
Following Your Example, I'm going to go through each of the character races in the book and compare them to the MM. I'll list the stat bonuses for the race, then the top three stats for each build, from highest to lowest. Two stats with a slash mean they are equal.
Dragonborn +2 STR, +2 CHA
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Soldier:..... STR, DEX/CON
Gladiator:.. STR, CON, CHA
Raider:...... DEX, STR, CON
Champion:.. STR, CON, CHA
Dwarf +2 CON, +2 WIS
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Bolter:....... DEX/CON, STR
Hammerer:. STR, CON, WIS
Eladrin +2 DEX, +2 INT
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Knight:.... DEX, STR, CHA
Incanter:. INT, DEX/CHA
Bralani:... CHA, DEX, CON
Ghaele:... CHA, DEX, CON/WIS
Elf +2 DEX, +2 WIS
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Archer:. DEX, WIS, CON
Scout:.. DEX, CON, WIS
Half-Elf +2 CON, +2 CHA
-----------------------------
Not in MM
Halfling +2 DEX, +2 CHA
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Slinger:.. DEX, CHA, STR
Stout:... DEX, CHA, STR
Thief:.... DEX, CHA, STR
Prowler:. DEX, CHA, STR
Human +2 to one stat
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Rable:...... STR, CON, CHA
Lackey:.... STR, CON, CHA
Bandit:..... DEX, CON, STR/CHA
Guard:..... STR, CON, DEX
Berserker:. STR, CON, CHA/DEX
Mage:...... INT, WIS, DEX
Tiefling +2 INT, +2 CHA
-----------------------------
Heretic:.... DEX/CHA, CON
Darkblade:. DEX, CON/CHA
I guess my point is that the Monster's Manual is not a good stat reference when comparing what a racial bonus should be, and what they are. It seems to be hit and miss for which stats are the three highest compared to what the race gets as a bonus.
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5 years ago ::
Aug 20, 2008 - 11:42PM
#92
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Date Joined:
Apr 23, 2005
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I guess my point is that the Monster's Manual is not a good stat reference when comparing what a racial bonus should be, and what they are. It seems to be hit and miss for which stats are the three highest compared to what the race gets as a bonus.
Well, you don't make a very good point considering that the bonus attributes in all those entries seems to always appear in the top 3 attributes on their entry.
However, the Tiefling has Intelligence as its absolute WORST attribute in BOTH monster entries.
The others that stand out is that the Dragonborn probably should NOT have bonus Charisma and instead by Str and Con and the Eldarin should probably be Dex and Cha rather than Dex and Int.
But the Elf, Dwarf and Halfling are exactly what one would expect from a race that has those attribute adjustments. Human is just meaningless.
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5 years ago ::
Aug 20, 2008 - 11:54PM
#93
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Date Joined:
Jul 31, 2008
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Well, you don't make a very good point considering that the bonus attributes in all those entries seems to always appear in the top 3 attributes on their entry.
However, the Tiefling has Intelligence as its absolute WORST attribute in BOTH monster entries.
The others that stand out is that the Dragonborn probably should NOT have bonus Charisma and instead by Str and Con and the Eldarin should probably be Dex and Cha rather than Dex and Int.
But the Elf, Dwarf and Halfling are exactly what one would expect from a race that has those attribute adjustments. Human is just meaningless.
Yeah, pretty much.
But then, that's why I said it was hit and miss. You have three races that are right on, and three that are off. Tis a shame there's no half-elves in there, eh? 
I don't think the Tiefling MM stats give a good representation of what Tieflings are according to the PHB. This is compared to the other line of thought represented: 'The PHB doesn't accurately represent the tiefling as the MM shows them.'
It's a matter of which source you think is more correct, and I'm backing the PHB.
I'm going to stop making my argument on this thread. I've convinced at least one person that CHA is accurate to how the Tiefling is supposed to be. I'll let it rest at that.
Enjoy gaming!
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5 years ago ::
Aug 21, 2008 - 12:44AM
#94
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Date Joined:
Apr 23, 2005
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I don't think the Tiefling MM stats give a good representation of what Tieflings are according to the PHB. This is compared to the other line of thought represented: 'The PHB doesn't accurately represent the tiefling as the MM shows them.'
But Tiefling aside, what about the Dragonborn and the Eldarin?
The Eldarin seem like they SHOULD be a high Charisma race. Eldarin and Tiefling seem to have been given Intelligence bonuses simply to make them the "wizard" races despite their fluff not really supporting them being vastly more intelligent than the other races (or at least outstrip other races by the extent that Dragonborn do in strength, Elves do in dexterity and Dwarfs do in Constitution.)
Dragonborn conversely come across as though they should be physical monstrousities, not just in strength but also little should stun or hurt the scaley beasts-- this is much more true than we would expect Charisma to be one of their benefits.
Of course, I can certainly imagine that when they were being put together that the game designers felt that they wanted to construct them as being likely to be Paladins and Warlords instead of just big, scary fighters and so they didn't want to stack two physical scores.
I also suspect that earlier in the design phase the Tiefling also had a dex bonus but then someone looked at it and realized how dumb it was to have 4 +Dex races in their PHB (I am not even fully convinced that the Eldarin fluff supports them having a high Dex, I think they could do without it!).
The reason I would put the Monster Manual as being more correct than the PHB is that in the PHB you have the pressure of each race filling different niches than the other races-- instead of allowing them to follow their fluff as close as possible, they instead have to be hammered and reshaped and molded into fitting into the particular niche that is needed, regardless of whether or not they SHOULD fit.
Conversely, in the Monster Manual you just need the monster to fit a particular power level and otherwise the monster is free to be as fully conformed to their fluff as they need to be. In the Monster Manual you are much more free to make the race as close as they should be as you can without requiring them to fill any premolded niche determined by the inclusion of 6 other monsters/races in the book and the necessity for the selection to be diverse and meet all the class options.
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5 years ago ::
Aug 21, 2008 - 1:06AM
#95
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Date Joined:
Mar 17, 2001
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Well, especially from the Tieflings look, I would totally go for +2 Con and +2 Int for Tieflings.
Also +2 Dex/Int +2 Cha would make more sense for the Half Elves to me.
Ceterum censeo scrinium puniceum esse delendam
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5 years ago ::
Aug 21, 2008 - 1:09AM
#96
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Date Joined:
Apr 14, 2007
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I still say it makes sense that Dragonborn have Charisma and Eladrin don't.
Why should a alien and inhuman being who views themselves as superior and above all others have lots of Charisma amongst other people?
And why should a being whose strength and most likely reputation not gather attention and generate a extreme force of personality behind it when it feels like it. If a Dragonborn enters a room I expect the whole room to notice, that screams Charisma to me.
Since remember in 4e, Charisma is simply: "measures your force of personality,
persuasiveness, and leadership."
I imagine a Dragonborn that could easily kill you would have immense amounts of force of personality and persuasiveness. While a Eladrin that gets on your nerves and is otherworldly and simply alien would not.
Tieflings also fit in the fold for Charisma since they have a reputation and this reputation means they can back up what they say quite easily. They also most likely have spent their lives learning how to deal with people, which would make them much more able at Charisma (this last point also stands true with Half-Elves and their diplomacy bonuses).
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5 years ago ::
Aug 21, 2008 - 4:57AM
#97
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Date Joined:
Apr 23, 2005
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Tieflings also fit in the fold for Charisma since they have a reputation and this reputation means they can back up what they say quite easily. They also most likely have spent their lives learning how to deal with people, which would make them much more able at Charisma (this last point also stands true with Half-Elves and their diplomacy bonuses).
That means they COULD learn to harness it, not that they universally would as a +2 Charisma would suggest.
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5 years ago ::
Aug 21, 2008 - 5:37AM
#98
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Date Joined:
Mar 17, 2001
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Tiefling Infernal Warlocks DO get +2 to con; it's called Hellfire Blood.
Well, there is truth in that one. Probalby Tieflings with Hellfire Blood and +2 con would be just uber.
Ceterum censeo scrinium puniceum esse delendam
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5 years ago ::
Aug 21, 2008 - 6:36AM
#99
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I'm unfamiliar with tieflings except in passing, until 4E. Have they, in the past, been known to be particularly hardy creatures? If hardiness was a part of their makeup in the past, it is not now. It seems to me that some people are putting a lot of emphasis on a slight +2 bonus just because it would give the race a slight benefit if they chose to go the infernal warlock route. Is the +1 modifier that the half-elf (or any of the other races in the MM that have a +2 bonus to Con) can start with that much of a glaring advantage? This strikes me more as wanting to eke out every advantage that you can and seems a little min/maxing.
People sleep peacefully in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf. --George Orwell There is no flag large enough to cover the shame of killing innocent people. --Howard Zinn He who fights with monsters must take care lest he thereby become a monster. --Friedrich Nietzsche 
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5 years ago ::
Aug 21, 2008 - 8:01AM
#100
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Date Joined:
Aug 26, 2005
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As I've said and said again, I really don't think that +2 Con is befitting of them. The tieflings have never been slated as a particularly tough or hardy race, even now.
The only reason that this argument is even here is because the infernal-pact warlock is based off con. If had been based off wis, we'd have that argument now.
The tieflings might have been the original, but they were tieflings before they were warlocks, therefor, I don't see the need for the connection.
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