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5 years ago ::
Aug 17, 2008 - 12:02PM
#71
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PH page 130.
"Inferal Pact
Long ago a forgotten race of devils created a secret path to power and taught it to the tieflings of old to weaken their fealty to Asmodeus."
If tieflings were already around before being taught the infernal pact, how can they be considered especially geared towards the pact? By this statement, they were just the first be brought in under it. It states nothing about them being predisposed to it which should be translated into some mechanics. Is there some rule in game design that says you must create a race which has mechanics predisposed to the classes it favors as flavor?
People sleep peacefully in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf. --George Orwell There is no flag large enough to cover the shame of killing innocent people. --Howard Zinn He who fights with monsters must take care lest he thereby become a monster. --Friedrich Nietzsche 
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5 years ago ::
Aug 17, 2008 - 12:33PM
#72
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So I was lamenting the lack of +Con, +Int races for warlocks (aside from the githzerai, whose appearance just really upsets me, are MM races, and total reflavoring makes DMs twitchy) and the perfect setup tieflings have for the fey pact, when suddenly it hit me.
Arguments for +2 con, not +2 cha.
Anybody else been scratching their heads trying to figure out what's up with +2 cha tieflings?
I totally agree with you. It makes way more sense for Tieflings to be +2 Int and +2 Con. The other race that is weird is the half elf. +2 Con and +2 Cha, neither elven attributes.
However, I think that they made the attributes as they did for game balance more than anything. If Tieflings were +2 Int, +2 Con, people would always run them as Infernal Warlocks, because there would be no other option that compared with them. For example:
Str 8
Int 18
Wis 10
Dx 12
Con 18
Cha 14
That, plus the hellfire blood feat, makes one seriously tough infernal pact warlock.
But I am more about what makes sense in the world. To me, it makes sense that most of the infernal pact warlocks would be tieflings, so I say house rule it, and let the devil have his due!
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5 years ago ::
Aug 17, 2008 - 8:39PM
#73
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Date Joined:
Jul 31, 2008
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If tieflings were already around before being taught the infernal pact, how can they be considered especially geared towards the pact? By this statement, they were just the first be brought in under it. It states nothing about them being predisposed to it which should be translated into some mechanics. Is there some rule in game design that says you must create a race which has mechanics predisposed to the classes it favors as flavor?
I think that's the point people are trying to make when they say the tieflings are good as is, and it shouldn't be a +2 Con.
Aren't the devils supposed to serve Asmodeus??? That infernal pact bit of information doesn't seem to make much sense to me (unless you change some loose asumptions), because it makes out the infernal pact concept to be relatively new in history, because the tieflings are also (being product of one of the most recent empires to fall, actually remembered). I would have thought some sort of infernal pact would have developed long before the tieflings existed, back in times no one remembers. There seem to be a few issues in this area IMO.
Ha ha. Ha... ha. Devils not backstabbing because they're serving... Ha. While it's technically true that the Baatezu "serve" their lords (and other higher-ups), they're scheming little punks, and will do anything they can to bend the contract as far as they can (without actually breaking it). They serve to the letter of the law, not the spirit. By far. Any change they get to prove themselves better, stronger, smarter, etc.. with out breaking contract, they will.
In fact (Baatezu history-wise), that's how they gain rank, and by gaining rank, they gain powers and change into a more powerful Baatezu.
Devils... not backstabbing Asmodeus because they serve him. Hilarious!
Although, you're probably right about the infernal pact being around longer than mortal's memory. The old devils probably just brought it back into use.
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5 years ago ::
Aug 17, 2008 - 8:50PM
#74
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Date Joined:
Aug 26, 2005
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Well, if you ask me, the Infernal pact started a long time ago, when Gul'Dan- Wait a second, I think I have the wrong game here.
Anyway, I don't think that the tieflins should automatically be the de facto best Hellocks, simply because they were tieflings before they signed the pact with these ancient devils. These ancient devils did not make the tieflings what they were, and they may not have made the pact specifically for them.
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5 years ago ::
Aug 17, 2008 - 8:52PM
#75
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Date Joined:
Jun 16, 2008
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Ya, you're probably right, I don't know why I didn't think about that. Maybe that explains the "long-lost" part in the long-lost race of devils. They were backstabbing, and Asmodeus was not happy. Now they don't exist.
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5 years ago ::
Aug 17, 2008 - 9:00PM
#76
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Date Joined:
Aug 26, 2005
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Thinking about it that way, is it too hard to believe that these ancient devils, if the pact had been designed for the tieflings, made it so that it didn't play to their strengths?
Unless they wanted the tiefling loyalty to themselves. Then that's just shooting yourself in the foot.
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5 years ago ::
Aug 17, 2008 - 9:17PM
#77
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Date Joined:
Jul 31, 2008
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Ya, you're probably right, I don't know why I didn't think about that. Maybe that explains the "long-lost" part in the long-lost race of devils. They were backstabbing, and Asmodeus was not happy. Now they don't exist.
Yes and No. Asmodeus wasn't always a deity. He used to be just a plain old devil. They're probably long lost and forgotten because they've been imprisoned or some such other things. Also, don't forget, when a devil or demon is banished to their home plain, then killed on their home plain, it takes thousands of years for them to come back, and then they start at the bottom of the chain again. They do have a very long memory, though. :D
Thinking about it that way, is it too hard to believe that these ancient devils, if the pact had been designed for the tieflings, made it so that it didn't play to their strengths?
Unless they wanted the tiefling loyalty to themselves. Then that's just shooting yourself in the foot.
I think that would make perfect sense. They want the tieflings to be loyal to them, but not powerful enough to overcome them. So, they design a pact to empower the tieflings, but it doesn't play to all their strengths, or that may make them too powerful. That seems right in line with how a devil would think when writing up a contract for someone to sign. After all, they are schemers, those devils.
Remember: What part of evil goes with being loyal? 
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5 years ago ::
Aug 17, 2008 - 9:28PM
#78
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Date Joined:
Aug 26, 2005
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Indeed.
Also, I think at that point Asmodeus was a deity, however. Also, he was (in 4e, anyway) never a devil- Asmo was an Angel that "betrayed" and murdered his deity.
However, if he couldn't kill said deity, it could be the machinations of that ancient deity (read: "A long-lost race of devils") that caused the Tieflings to accept the infernal pact and, thusly, their empire fall. Perhaps it was also a piece of pride to see Asmodeus's mortal will incarnate fall to such lows for power, then destroy themselves.
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5 years ago ::
Aug 18, 2008 - 6:09AM
#79
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Date Joined:
Jun 16, 2008
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Yes and No. Asmodeus wasn't always a deity. He used to be just a plain old devil. They're probably long lost and forgotten because they've been imprisoned or some such other things. Also, don't forget, when a devil or demon is banished to their home plain, then killed on their home plain, it takes thousands of years for them to come back, and then they start at the bottom of the chain again. They do have a very long memory, though. :D
Well in that case, that looks like a good opening for some plot ideas.
Indeed.
Also, I think at that point Asmodeus was a deity, however. Also, he was (in 4e, anyway) never a devil- Asmo was an Angel that "betrayed" and murdered his deity.
However, if he couldn't kill said deity, it could be the machinations of that ancient deity (read: "A long-lost race of devils") that caused the Tieflings to accept the infernal pact and, thusly, their empire fall. Perhaps it was also a piece of pride to see Asmodeus's mortal will incarnate fall to such lows for power, then destroy themselves.
Again, same idea, opening for plot ideas.
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5 years ago ::
Aug 20, 2008 - 11:30AM
#80
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Date Joined:
Mar 16, 2007
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Tieflings should get +2 con. Stats are supposed to support clichés. That was a problem in 3e, where elves were supposed to be inclined towards being a wizard, but the -2 con and no bonus to int, virtually ensured that no one would ever play an elven wizard in any game. Tiefling infernalists should be encouraged, and they aren’t. Dwarves and half-elves outnumbering tieflings as infernal warlocks is a little silly.
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