i cannot say enough times that, as i am looking at tieflings and thinking about the best warlock fit and seeing fey locks, it KILLS me.
So don't call it a feylock. Ask your DM if you can make a tiefling with a succubus pact holder, but for all intents and purposes mechanically, be a feylock. Flavor all your powers to be fire, brimstone, and infernal charm, and leave it at that.
So don't call it a feylock. Ask your DM if you can make a tiefling with a succubus pact holder, but for all intents and purposes mechanically, be a feylock. Flavor all your powers to be fire, brimstone, and infernal charm, and leave it at that.
here is my little problem. i really prefer playing the game as written, keeping houseruling as close to nonexistent as possible.
i only houserule when something is just plain wrong to me, like the current topic of discussion, or like dwarves specializing in axes instead of picks (what's up with that!?!).
okay, now you did it. you made me want to list MaximumHavoc's pet peeves: (1) tieflings should make the best infernal warlocks; (2) dwarves specializing in hammers and axes should be hammers and picks (i mean, these buggers are a race of miners. and what do you use to mine? hammers? yes. picks? yes. axes? a big no.); (3) eladrin specializing in longsword should be rapier; (4) drow as chaotic evil (fixed in 4e); (5) lolth as chaotic evil (not fixed in 4e); (6) gruumsh should be a primordial, like yeenoghu, baphomet or kostchtchie (yes, i know that the latter two have not yet made appearances in 4e, but you get the idea); (7) correlon took out gruumsh's eye with a bow, not a sword (fixed in 4e);and (8) bane's forces eternally war with kord's, not gruumsh's (who is a demon lord primordial in the abyss now, anyway).
here is my little problem. i really prefer playing the game as written, keeping houseruling as close to nonexistent as possible.
i only houserule when something is just plain wrong to me, like the current topic of discussion, or like dwarves specializing in axes instead of picks (what's up with that!?!).
okay, now you did it. you made me want to list MaximumHavoc's pet peeves: (1) tieflings should make the best infernal warlocks; (2) dwarves specializing in hammers and axes should be hammers and picks (i mean, these buggers are a race of miners. and what do you use to mine? hammers? yes. picks? yes. axes? a big no.); (3) eladrin specializing in longsword should be rapier; (4) drow as chaotic evil (fixed in 4e); (5) lolth as chaotic evil (not fixed in 4e); (6) gruumsh should be a primordial, like yeenoghu, baphomet or kostchtchie (yes, i know that the latter two have not yet made appearances in 4e, but you get the idea); (7) correlon took out gruumsh's eye with a bow, not a sword (fixed in 4e);and (8) bane's forces eternally war with kord's, not gruumsh's (who is a demon lord primordial in the abyss now, anyway).
What I suggested isn't a house rule... it has no bearing on game mechanics... it's just a flavor change.
And on to the list! (1) We've already made arguements as to why they shouldn't (2) Dwarves don't use picks for war, they use them for mining... mostly. In combat the iconic dwarf warrior was a berserker, swinging a hammer or axe because they are less likely to get stuck in things so they don't have to stop swinging it to free it from someone's gut, as you would have to commonly with a pick. (3) No, they shouldn't. Elves should, but eladrin are more into the armor wearing, when they fight, because they can teleport. Mobility isn't as hindered by armor or weapons for them. Thus, longsword and shield, iconic fighter. Ideally though, both races IMO should use something akin to the 3.5 elven courtblade. (4) Drow follow too many rules to be chaotic. They lie to each other and kill each other, but they have rules and protocols that they follow, set in place by Lolth and high preistesses. (5) Disagreed. Lolth has too many rules and strictures in place for drow to obey. (6) I don't have a clue on this one, so no argument here. (7) See (6) (8) See (7)
In my opinion, tieflings are fine as-is. They should make good infernal warlocks, but not the best. Why? Here's my reasoning.
All of the fluff material that I can find in the PHB suggests that tieflings, while being the original infernal pact warlocks, aren't the best at it. The reason is, it wasn't custom-fit to them. They should make better Clerics and Paladins than anything else.
The original "pact" that changed the tieflings so was the one they made with Asmodeus. In the description of infernal pact (PHB pg. 130) it says that a long-forgotten race of devils created the pact to weaken the tieflings ties to Asmodeus. Now, in 3.X, Asmo was nothing but a very powerful devil (some speculation about this, but you get what I'm trying to say.) However, in 4e, he is a deity in his own right, and deities have clerics and paladins to serve them. And perhaps it's just me, but the notion of an army of tiefling paladins is horrible to contemplate.
Now, I believe that Hellfire Blood should exist simultaneously with another feat. Hellfire Blood seems, to me, to be more of a feat geared towards a wizard or a cleric, but maybe that's just me. I haven't actually looked over those two classes in detail yet, so I could be wrong.
That's how I would do it, if I wanted it that way.
Beyond that, if I really wanted to say that Asmo had warlocks at his beck and call rather than clerics and paladins, I would have made them fey-pact anyway. Beyond the reasons that exist in my setting only, a pact with Asmodeus could easily be described as fey-pact. The powers of fey-pact are beguiling influence, a stunning insanity, or a shadowy illusion of something else. All of these sound perfect for the labyrinthine Asmodeus to use as weapons against his foes... Stunning them with his might which is terrible to behold, unlocking the doors to their subconscious selves and causing their very minds to become as prisons, or clouding his true motives and plans and actions behind a wall of illusions and shadows. Definitely fits.
All this being said, I have contemplated changing the tiefling's racial traits on several occasions as well, but to +2 Wisdom, +2 Charisma with a racial +1 to reflex to simulate the bonus to dexterity they had in previous editions. The reasons behind this is that they would then become excellent spell-based clerics and paladins, simulating the spell-based warlock, but doing it with the divine might of Asmodeus. Overall, however, I feel that their bonuses fit them, that as much as I like the idea of them getting a bonus to wisdom, intelligence fits them so much more.
So yeah, that was a little more long-winded than I intended, but I think I got my point across.
EDIT: Personally, I've also been thinking about creating a race of +Con/Int creatures that serve the devils and demons as the perfect infernal warlocks, battling with the tieflings for the "best of the best" title in that aspect. The notion here, however, is that the tieflings have long-since abandoned Bael-Turath, and these guys are constantly going on about "Show me your true infernal power, half-breed!" or somesuch and just can't wrap their minds around the idea that the tieflings aren't all infernal warlocks anymore.
However, I really did like the idea of the +2 Con (if we were to go with that) being the reason why their genes are always dominant.
(4) Drow follow too many rules to be chaotic. They lie to each other and kill each other, but they have rules and protocols that they follow, set in place by Lolth and high preistesses. (5) Disagreed. Lolth has too many rules and strictures in place for drow to obey.
you misunderstand me. i am not saying that drow and lolth SHOULD be chaotic evil. i am saying that them being chaotic evil, back in 3e, was not appropriate, and that 4e fixed this for the drow but not for lolth.
you misunderstand me. i am not saying that drow and lolth SHOULD be chaotic evil. i am saying that them being chaotic evil, back in 3e, was not appropriate, and that 4e fixed this for the drow but not for lolth.
you and i actually agree here.
My mistake... I could probably argue the other way if I tried hard enough... lol.
The original "pact" that changed the tieflings so was the one they made with Asmodeus. In the description of infernal pact (PHB pg. 130) it says that a long-forgotten race of devils created the pact to weaken the tieflings ties to Asmodeus.
Now that's just solid. I like it. I'm suprised I missed it in the PHB. Then again, my current DM doesn't allow helllocks, so I haven't had reason to look at it in depth.
I'm not sure about the bonus to Wis. Tieflings got penalties to wis in their original form. I think the idea revolved around their stubborness, and the fact that they never backed down from anyone or anything. Basically, they never had the wisdom to know when enough was enough. :D
okay, now you did it. you made me want to list MaximumHavoc's pet peeves: (1) tieflings should make the best infernal warlocks; (2) dwarves specializing in hammers and axes should be hammers and picks (i mean, these buggers are a race of miners. and what do you use to mine? hammers? yes. picks? yes. axes? a big no.); (3) eladrin specializing in longsword should be rapier; (4) drow as chaotic evil (fixed in 4e); (5) lolth as chaotic evil (not fixed in 4e); (6) gruumsh should be a primordial, like yeenoghu, baphomet or kostchtchie (yes, i know that the latter two have not yet made appearances in 4e, but you get the idea); (7) correlon took out gruumsh's eye with a bow, not a sword (fixed in 4e);and (8) bane's forces eternally war with kord's, not gruumsh's (who is a demon lord primordial in the abyss now, anyway).
Okay, now, I'm not going to say your list is wrong. You are a DM and you can make your campaign world however you like. Have the dwarf favored weapons as Katanas for all I care, and make them ino a feudal Japanese system if you want. HOWEVER, if you are addressing the core DnD setting, then I would provide some counter-points to your arguements. 1)The first infernal warlocks were not, in fact, tieflings. They were humans, who were changed into tieflings by the big bad evil guy. It's not like he said "You want my power? WELL I'LL CHANGE YOU! HAHA HA HA, and I'll make you better at being . . .. warlocks . . . like two boons for the price. . . . oh bugger. 2)DnD is, and always has been, roughly based off of Lord of the Rings. Wizards, Halflings (hobbits are even called halflings in the books) Mithril, and dwarves. In the books, Dwarves' favorite weapons were hammers (In the hobbit they used 'mighty mattocks') and axes (Gimli used axes) so, dwarves train with those weapons since childhood. 3)I believe the Eladrin longsword thing is a hail to the bladesinger, as is the wizard of the spiral tower. The idea being that Eladrin use a balance of grace with damage. 4)Under the old system, Drow were the imbodyment of Lawful evil. They had a plan, their society had a strict set of rules, governed by the matriarch houses. There were specific castes and slavery. Not any LESS evil, just not chaotic about it. Kinda like the Baatazu. 5)See above. 6-8)Your god mythology is straight on, I think. I never read the book of demigods for 3.x, so I'm not up on the lore of that stuff.
Now that's just solid. I like it. I'm suprised I missed it in the PHB. Then again, my current DM doesn't allow helllocks, so I haven't had reason to look at it in depth.
I'm not sure about the bonus to Wis. Tieflings got penalties to wis in their original form. I think the idea revolved around their stubborness, and the fact that they never backed down from anyone or anything. Basically, they never had the wisdom to know when enough was enough. :D
Ah, very interesting! I never knew that. I didn't play anything before 3.X, and in that, I (think) they only had the penalty to charisma (+2 Dex, +2 Int, -2 Cha, IIRC.) But as I said, the wisdom didn't seem to fit them, and the intelligence does, IMO, so I decided not to go with that. Even then, that +2 Wis/Cha would make them brutal divine characters.
1)The first infernal warlocks were not, in fact, tieflings. They were humans, who were changed into tieflings by the big bad evil guy. It's not like he said "You want my power? WELL I'LL CHANGE YOU! HAHA HA HA, and I'll make you better at being . . .. warlocks . . . like two boons for the price. . . . oh bugger.
okay, but that does not change the pure and simple fact that tieflings synergize better with feylock than infernal warlock, which, if i have not mentioned yet, KILLS me.
Degausser wrote:
2)DnD is, and always has been, roughly based off of Lord of the Rings. Wizards, Halflings (hobbits are even called halflings in the books) Mithril, and dwarves. In the books, Dwarves' favorite weapons were hammers (In the hobbit they used 'mighty mattocks') and axes (Gimli used axes) so, dwarves train with those weapons since childhood.
too true, and a compelling argument (all hail tolkein!). but, getting a racial weapon bonus is because the race in general makes use of this weapon, and when you think about the lives of dwarves, a race of miners, it seems to me that they naturally would be proficient with hammers and picks, not axes (notwithstanding the iconography of the great and all powerful tolkien--may his works live on forever).
Degausser wrote:
3)I believe the Eladrin longsword thing is a hail to the bladesinger, as is the wizard of the spiral tower. The idea being that Eladrin use a balance of grace with damage.
i am saying that all of that (bladesinger, wotst, eladrin racial weapon proficiency)should be changed from longsword to rapier, an even more graceful weapon than the longsword. get it? graceful = eladrin.
i guess i see longswords as more the weapon of men. dwarves favor hammers (and picks). eladrin favor rapiers and spears. elves favor bows. orcs favor axes. gnolls favor flails.
Degausser wrote:
4)Under the old system, Drow were the imbodyment of Lawful evil. They had a plan, their society had a strict set of rules, governed by the matriarch houses. There were specific castes and slavery. Not any LESS evil, just not chaotic about it. Kinda like the Baatazu.
the 1e fiend folio identify lolth and the drow as chaotic evil. what do you mean by the old system?
Even then, that +2 Wis/Cha would make them brutal divine characters.
