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5 years ago  ::  Jul 03, 2008 - 8:29PM #21
Manion
Date Joined: Jun 19, 2008
Posts: 2,109

AkumaDaimyo wrote:

You need to understand that artists are hired to DRAW, not to know the rules. Thus the artist has no idea that tiefling don't have prehensile tails.


He knows it well enough. The tail isn't prehensile in the images.

The Bruce Campbell of D&D.
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5 years ago  ::  Jul 05, 2008 - 11:17AM #22
JoeViturbo
Date Joined: Jul 5, 2008
Posts: 2
If we were to analyze this biologically we would look at modern analogs. There are many animals that use their non-prehensile tails to attack, mostly out of defense. This is most commonly seen in lizards like iguanas, monitors and even crocodillians. There are dinosaurs that display this ability as well; ankylosaurus, stegosaurus, although these behaviors are speculated from comparison to modern analogs much like what we're doing with the tiefling.
The difference between these and a tiefling is that these animals have scaly skin which behaves much like armor, protecting the soft flesh. Due to the non-prehensile nature of the tieflings tail, not only would a blade have to be attached but additionally, the attack would have to be made, in my opinion (you are allowed to disagree), by pivoting on his/her feet to fling his/her tail around much like a headbanger flings his hair at a rock concert. I'm trying to come-up with a mammal that uses its tail to attack and so far I can't think of anything.
You would also have to be aware that flinging a tail with a weight attached to the end and then smashing it into a solid object could cause not only a great deal of pain to the tail owner but could likely break it. I bet a broken tail is rather painful. This could be good rationale for this not being considered a legitimate attack in the first place. My dogs certainly don't seem to have too much feeling in their tail though when they are wagging it so hard it's constantly smacking the door.
Only a broad, thick tail would be useful for swimming so I would rule that out. I will agree with the balance idea and add another one. Cheetahs use their tails like a rudder. By directing its location they can counterbalance their own weight allowing them to change direction quickly while pursuing prey. Unfortunately, this requires a very long tail (at least again the length of their body) with good muscle control, coordination and flexibility (but in no way prehensile).
I'd be interested in tying various weights to the tails of several animals to see what the effect is on their tail's mobility, all in the name of SCIENCE. You can participate in your own home with your pets.
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5 years ago  ::  Jul 06, 2008 - 12:58PM #23
I_roll_ones
Date Joined: Dec 22, 2007
Posts: 572
The spike on the tail may just be so others don't grab it.

Or, it could be a status marker amongst tieflings, if they can afford so many swords that they can put some on their tail, showing off how much money they have.
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5 years ago  ::  Jul 06, 2008 - 2:56PM #24
Ogre4Hire
Date Joined: Dec 18, 2003
Posts: 257

I_roll_ones wrote:

The spike on the tail may just be so others don't grab it.

Or, it could be a status marker amongst tieflings, if they can afford so many swords that they can put some on their tail, showing off how much money they have.


That's a pretty cool idea, actually. Tiefling tail decorations as indications of rank.

Oh, and the Canadian Porcupine and extinct armadillo-like Doedicurus are two species of mammals that used their tails as weapons. The Porcupine, of course, is cover with quills that stick into the flesh of attackers, while the Doedicurus had a massive bone club at the end of its tail, similar to an Ankylosaur's.

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5 years ago  ::  Jul 06, 2008 - 5:21PM #25
Jack_in_the_Box
Date Joined: Jul 6, 2008
Posts: 4
I think that the +2 to stealth should instead have been a +2 to acrobatics, since being stealthy when a four-to-five foot piece of your anatomy needs to be hidden as well, but would certainly help in balance.

My Tiefling keeps her waterskin and a dagger strapped about half a foot down her tail. If you imagine drawing from that position, it's surprisingly natural. Beyond that, though, I don't see it having too many uses, other than smacking annoying companions.
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5 years ago  ::  Jul 07, 2008 - 9:59AM #26
Kaganfindel
Date Joined: Apr 1, 2007
Posts: 1,360
There's a good reason tieflings don't all make tail attacks - it's impractical. Unless the player made some concession to the need to undergo extensive training in attacking with the tail (like paying for it with an at will slot) I'd probably work the rules out so that it was a better idea to use some other limb in almost every circumstance if I was the DM. If the player did make such a concession, I'd probably make it require custom weapons, allow it to be used against opponents in the character's rear quadrant and flanks, and do 1(W) +STR, or 1(W) with a small chance of knockdown. The weapon itself would have to be pretty heavy, since odds are the attack would have to rely on force to deal its damage.

Maybe that's just me being an old grouch because I've had one too many player try to pass off a nonhuman character to get free attacks with the extra bits. I have to think, though, that if the developers wanted to allow tieflings to use their tails in combat they'd have put in rules to balance it against other racial abilities.
"When Friday comes, we'll all call rats fish."
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5 years ago  ::  Jul 07, 2008 - 10:26PM #27
Mad_Jack
Date Joined: Aug 19, 2007
Posts: 6,139
Tiefling's tails are just a hold-over from their ancestors' demonic shenanigans, and serve no useful purpose. It's just another cool-looking accessory that's slightly less useful than their shiny leather belt or their embroidered silk cloak.

On a bipedal, upright humanoid frame, a tail wouldn't help with balance, and would actually cause them to have to lean forward slightly to balance the weight of the tail.
Standing upright, a bipedal humanoid lacks the proper physiology to effectively manage a spinning tail slap with any real force, or to effectively trip someone in combat. A non-prehensile tail wouldn't be able to do much more than hold itself slightly off the ground so it doesn't drag in the mud... At best, a tiefling could hold it close to their leg so that no one steps on it.

However, as was previously mentioned, an enterprising player could strap smaller pouches or gear to the upper part of their tail for extra carrying space. It would certainly make a convenient place to carry a couple extra quivers of arrows.
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5 years ago  ::  Jul 07, 2008 - 11:35PM #28
Moosh_Nailo
Date Joined: Jan 27, 2005
Posts: 308
Red tails are good for stealing 6-packs.
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5 years ago  ::  Jul 07, 2008 - 11:36PM #29
ixious
Date Joined: Jan 24, 2008
Posts: 41
so when do i grow full-time wings and get my pitchfork heavy laden with babies?.....ok, more serious, the MMALWAYS has the NPC versions of the races a bit more "perfected" than the PC versions for control issues. I think eventually there will be feats for both dragonborn and tiefling to take advantage of an aspect of their anatomy, be it a dragonborn finally capable of growing the wings his brethern have on page 87, or the tiefling gaining the ability to use his tail for an attack, in my game flavor reins supreme as long as it is realiztic for the game, so yeah, ask your dm if in your gam the tail can be used or is it about as useful as a salamander tail.....
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5 years ago  ::  Jul 08, 2008 - 7:10AM #30
Manion
Date Joined: Jun 19, 2008
Posts: 2,109

ixious wrote:

so when do i grow full-time wings and get my pitchfork heavy laden with babies?.....ok, more serious, the MMALWAYS has the NPC versions of the races a bit more "perfected" than the PC versions for control issues. I think eventually there will be feats for both dragonborn and tiefling to take advantage of an aspect of their anatomy, be it a dragonborn finally capable of growing the wings his brethern have on page 87, or the tiefling gaining the ability to use his tail for an attack, in my game flavor reins supreme as long as it is realiztic for the game, so yeah, ask your dm if in your gam the tail can be used or is it about as useful as a salamander tail.....


I'm calling Racial Paragons for that, perhaps not feats.

The Bruce Campbell of D&D.
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