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5 years ago ::
Jul 13, 2008 - 7:29PM
#21
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The bottom line is, are his actions disrupting your game? You said it was entertaining at first, but if the consequences of his actions are seriously hindering the other player characters, or he's more interested in slaughtering unarmed NPCs than in actually following the adventure you have planned, then you have every right to sit that player down and tell him to cut the crap. Regardless of the character's alignment, he is just a character; the player chooses how to behave, and it is the player who will have to face the consequences for his behaviour.
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5 years ago ::
Jul 13, 2008 - 8:26PM
#22
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Date Joined:
Jul 13, 2003
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Warning Millitant-AntiAlignmentist ranting aheadKilling people in simply because they have something he wants or because they annoy him? Yep that's pretty evil, in both my book, modern society's and D&D's (actually I'd place that in wanton Chaotic Evil myself, warning or no-warning.) In fact very few definitions of evil *wouldn't* include that sort of behaviour. But then personally I'd consider many "Lawful Good" D&D characters pretty evil Bastards who I'd never wish to end up in the same room as. Note the bit of unalignened that states If you’re unaligned, you don’t actively seek to harm others or wish them ill. But you also don’t go out of your way to put yourself at risk without some hope for reward.
As for "does it matter if you declare his alignment to be evil"?
In 4E there only two Mechanical effects of Alignment, one is relating to Clerics having the same alignment as their patron deity (and no mechanical effects of "falling from grace), and the other footnote on the "Astral Whilwind" paragon power.
Even artefacts don't seem to care about the alignment you have on your character sheet, but rather whether your behaviour furthers it's goals whilst it is in your possession. This I consider a good thing.
I personally greatly dislike the "straightjacket" approach of alingment towards guiding roleplay (something thankfully that 3rd and 4E distanced themselves from) and rather than yell "THAT'S NOT YOUR CHARACTER'S ALIGNMENT!" and refuse his character from allowing him to do actions I'd rather either
1) Politely explain that you'd prefer his character not to behave like that as it's meant to be a "heroic" game and that it's making your job as DM more difficult.
I might have too much faith in the power of non-idiotic adults rationally talking things over however.
2) As with real-life and narrative themes of heroic fantasy, make sure that evil/psychopathic behaviour has consequences.
Society in general tends to take a dim view of murder. Medieval-esc societies also don't bother with "due-legal-process" and "fair trials"
Have him find out that said NPC he goes to butcher is alot tougher than he first appeared (though this could be a tad "Gottcha!" falicy). If NPC's are wandering around away from civilisation, chances are they're pretty frikkin' tough themselves. In a populated location getting away with murder shouldn't be the easiest of acts esp when ("innocent until proven guilty" isn't in the lexicon of local law enforcement).
If he goes around killing solitary merchants then it's likely that he'll get away with it... except possibly in the eyes of the Gods.
If metaphysically suitable for your world, have him appear in the omens and dreams of clerics and paladins of local churches. Have random mad-soothsayers scream oaths and curses upon him in public.
If he's paragon level or above, he might well draw flak from Angels as well. Turn to page. 17 of the Monster Manual and have a look at the ANGEL OF VENGEANCE. :P
If he has a Divine power source, he may have his patron deity ****** off at him, this generally isn't considered a good thing (even if here are no-longer any mechanical).
As a Human Wizard, this isn't exactly a high concern. In which case, see the above Angel of Vengeance instead. :P
EDIT: Damnit, Bill4747 said what I said but better... God damn you Bill4747!
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5 years ago ::
Jul 14, 2008 - 12:19AM
#23
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I've always used the rule of common sense when dictating alignments to my players. That being said most players confuse Chaotic Neutral and True Neutral with Chaotic Evil. (A chaotic evil character is the true "Free Spirit". You'll follow the rules...if they benefit you. You'll stay your blade...for a price")
To break it down:
Killing someone because they have murdered another (Lawful Good)
-You have good values, but the law supersedes those values. Even if you know someone will do harm to another, you may not act upon it because they've done nothing wrong in light of the law.
"In accordance with the law, you hereby are sentenced to death."
Lawful good can also be thought of as "Civil Order"
Killing someone because they will murder another (Good)
-You have good values and intentions, even if the law doesn't agree. You may be listed as a murderer, but you know your actions just.
"I will stop this madman, even if the police will not!"
Good can also be thought of as "Upholding Moral Values"
Choosing not to act, not caring, or remaining indifferent. (Unaligned)
-You have mostly good values, but you will seldomly uphold them. Even if another is murdered you may choose to stay out of the crossfire in fear for your safety. Or perhaps for a relation as to why the individual committed the murder.
"He murdered that person...but they did burn down his house."
Unaligned can also be thought of as "Indifference"
Killing someone because it nets personal gain (Evil)
-You mostly think for yourself, but your not totally beyond redemption. Vengeance, greed, and personal gain are your values, but you've been known to save a soul or two...for the right price.
"He owns the largest diamond in all the land and refuses to part with it. I've been reasonable, I given him multiple avenues and offered him hordes of gold...So I guess he'll have to part with his life instead of his precious diamond"
Evil can also be thought of as "Selfish" (Opposite to Good)
Killing someone because they're annoying (Chaotic Evil)
-Your self centered, and usually completely against society. You've been called a monster, murderer, and psychopath. You are without conscience.
"He still has the diamond? Kill him and his family for his insolence. Torch his home and buildings, and let all know the wrath of those who do not submit!"
Chaotic evil can also be thought of as "Anarchy" (Opposite to Lawful Good)
To answer your question, your player is:
Giving NPCs a warning that if they don't give him what he wants or stop doing whatever is annoying him he will kill them.
That is Chaotic Evil, but you might be able to play it off as just Evil, depends on the context and actual actions taken (Would his character follow through with the threats or are they just empty bluffs?). Its certainly not "unaligned". His player character has taken a stand, and its anything but indifference (unaligned).
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5 years ago ::
Jul 14, 2008 - 12:24AM
#24
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Date Joined:
Mar 22, 2005
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Your definition of unaligned, while sufficient for most cases, fails to cover certain special cases, like those I imagine the Raven Queen and Corellon to hold. In the Raven Queen's case, alignment is irrelevant because she holds domain over members of all alignments, and is above them. In the case of Corellon, I see him as holding values other than objective Good and Evil to be the highest, such as Aesthetic values. This is, of course, only my interpretation, but the book does include a little blurb about 'choosing not to choose' for reasons such as these.
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5 years ago ::
Jul 14, 2008 - 12:35AM
#25
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Your definition of unaligned, while sufficient for most cases, fails to cover certain special cases, like those I imagine the Raven Queen and Corellon to hold.
Being aware of what most people would do based on their individual ideology (or in context of the game: alignment) and basing your ultimate opinion on that would be unaligned. Although it doesn't fit the category of "indifference" - you still must use common sense and pick the category that makes the most sense.
Although on thinking of this further, I admit that such a course of action probably wouldn't dictate an alignment at all. If you were to think this way today outside of the game, you'd be what rhetoricians call an intelligent thinker, and this would hold little if any relation to a good/evil alignment.
So to that end I usually put "everything in between" as True Neutral (or in 4.0 - unaligned)
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5 years ago ::
Jul 14, 2008 - 6:58AM
#26
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Date Joined:
Aug 28, 2007
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Anyone remember in first edition, when an Assassin could learn how to speak lawful good to fool a paladin?  Alignment languages for the Win!
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5 years ago ::
Jul 14, 2008 - 7:29AM
#27
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Date Joined:
Aug 18, 2007
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The neat thing about this game is that the players' actions affect the game world. If, for example, an "unaligned" Wizard 7 were to rob an NPC, the exchange might go like this:
Wizard: "Friend" Elf, give me your enchanted orb; I have as much need for it as you have for your life.
Elf: This orb is mine. It has been in my family since before your family had a name. I'll not part with it.
*Wizard blasts Elf to bits and takes the orb*
*two Elven children come skipping in happily*
Children: Papa, are you going to read to us now?
*they see the ashes where Papa was, and the Wizard holding Papa's orb, and run away*
Time passes ...
The party goes into the Elven village of Treeville. They are happy and carefree ... until the party of Good adventurers meet them to bring the Wizard to justice. Just as a party of PC's is usually up to the challenge facing them, the Good NPC adventurers are very capable of subduing the "Unaligned" thief and murderer in a few rounds and deliver him to the Elven court for justice ...
Therein do we see that Unaligned + power =/= ability to kill any given NPC and steal from them without consequence. PC actions have effects in the game world. This isn't the DM responding with a heavy hand to spoil the player's fun. It is the game world responding logically and consistently to what happens therein.
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5 years ago ::
Jul 14, 2008 - 8:35AM
#28
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Date Joined:
Jun 18, 2008
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Are we really that afraid to call things evil in today's world?
If you murder anyone short of in battle or in self defense, EVIL
If you steal from people - EVIL
How can someone say unaligned would support those actions, numbs my mind.
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5 years ago ::
Jul 14, 2008 - 8:43AM
#29
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"I'll take what is yours, because you're too weak to own it."
That's chaotic evil. In fact, I'm pretty sure one of the editions used that statement as a specific example of chaotic evil. Taking what you can and killing anyone who tries to stop you is, by the definition of every edition since first, chaotic evil.
Unless you're running a campaign in which all of the players want to play a wandering gang of murdering raiders in the spirit of The Devil's Rejects, there's no room in a party (or really in any civilized society) for a player like that. Unless he's extremely clever about disposing of his victims, he shouldn't be able to walk into any town with a city watch, as news of rabid dogs like his character travels fast. People like that end up bleeding out in the middle of a dirt road somewhere.
If you want to keep the player but rein in his behavior in game, start running him out of towns or turning him away at city gates. No ruler wants to suffer visitors who leave trails of bodies, so let him wander around with loot he can't sell and gold he can't spend, and maybe his next character will at least be discrete. Let him live or die by his Nature skill rolls for a while and see how his next character feels about mugging NPCs willy nilly.
"When Friday comes, we'll all call rats fish."
D&D Outsider
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5 years ago ::
Jul 14, 2008 - 9:07AM
#30
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Date Joined:
Jun 28, 2008
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If you steal from people - EVIL
Depends on the reason why they steal said object.
Being unaligned(Chaotic neutral) isn't as easy to play as some thing.
Doing things simply for fun that doesn't really hurt anyone = chaotic neutral.
Doing the same while hurting someone = evil.
Is a NPC looking at your in a funny way? Or annoying you? Steal his hat, wear it inside out and parade it around town. That's chaotic neutral/unaligned.
If you want to keep the player but rein in his behavior in game, start running him out of towns or turning him away at city gates. No ruler wants to suffer visitors who leave trails of bodies, so let him wander around with loot he can't sell and gold he can't spend, and maybe his next character will at least be discrete.
More likely attacked on sight imo.
Maybe another adventuring group will come after that character.
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