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Switch to Forum Live View Trouble with Unaligned Players
5 years ago  ::  Aug 06, 2008 - 8:54AM #121
Provacateur
Date Joined: Jul 28, 2008
Posts: 147
It sounds as if the issue does not originate from the admittedly vague definition of an unaligned character, but from the need your player to justify his (evil) actions through that ambiguity.

Kaz Magnussion, Holy Zealot of the Raven Queen, is an unaligned Human Fighter / Warpriest. He lives his life by a strict code and does not concern himself with the philosophic mores of good or evil, nor does he participate in the secular matters of kings and governors. He believes the members of his party are key players in a divine prophecy which is too great for his mind to fathom, and so travels with them in an attempt to understand the fragments of the cosmic mystery his goddess placed in his consciousness. He protects them from harm with his martial prowess for this reason, though never uses his powers to revive them from the brink of death as he sees the hand of the Raven Queen as omnipresent, guiding them toward their destinies. When innocents die around him he prays that they reach the afterlife that is denied to him but feels no remorse for their deaths, any more than he does for the foes that die under his blade. His true devotion remains in the worship of his Queen and the belief in fate, mystery, and death.

I disagree that unaligned characters should be morally apathetic, as the PHB implies. Some believe in the existence of something greater than good or evil, law or chaos, as some have already stated. A personal code, the search for truth, the restoration of a lost empire or bloodline.

As for your wizard, killing someone because they're annoying or you want their stuff...in my game, that's evil. Especially if he's metagamin' and realizes it's an NPC and not, say, some incredibly powerful agent for the king/power structure come to contact him in secrecy. In which case he should get a level 27 rogue with full action points all over his decrepit ass.
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5 years ago  ::  Aug 06, 2008 - 12:41PM #122
Drackthor
Date Joined: Jan 23, 2008
Posts: 803

Troll_Grappler wrote:

Strangely enough I would class this as CG.

Nothing all that evil here and no real attempt to force his belief in Chaos on others.



LOL:D


Other then the stealing, greed and disregard for other people, oh he's definitely CG.

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5 years ago  ::  Aug 06, 2008 - 12:48PM #123
Kaldair
Date Joined: Oct 19, 2006
Posts: 417
Alignments are purely fluff in 4e. Why does everyone get so excited about "My unaligned players are doing [insert something abiguously evil]!" Alignments are just a reminder written on the character sheet to the player saying "this is how I intended to play the character." That's it. It never even has to come to the DM's attention. How NPC's see them (since there are no longer any alignment discerning abilities) depends entirely upon the characters' actions actions. A DM doesn't have to know their alignment to see what they're doing.
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5 years ago  ::  Aug 06, 2008 - 2:35PM #124
Drackthor
Date Joined: Jan 23, 2008
Posts: 803

Opal-Dragon wrote:

The Punisher is a trademark Evil Hero. Elric. And maybe others.


The Punisher really isn't evil per se, but more of an Anti-Hero who is possibly borderline psychotic.

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5 years ago  ::  Aug 08, 2008 - 12:39AM #125
Cilionelle
Date Joined: Sep 1, 2007
Posts: 96

Troll_Grappler wrote:

Unaligned has none of these distinctions. It is the 'easy-going' alignment for people who can't be bothered with a deeper character.


Wow. Harsh. I'm playing an unaligned character at the moment and having a really interesting time working out why he isn't more inclined to good or evil. Don't think that's an absence of deeper character... I'll admit it can seem like it could be played as a sort of "do whatever you want" kind of alignment, but surely by definition that's more leaning towards evil, especially if that "do what you want" includes killing people for not giving you their stuff...

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5 years ago  ::  Aug 08, 2008 - 11:43PM #126
Gabryl_Kaine
Date Joined: Aug 17, 2007
Posts: 86

Kaldair wrote:

Alignments are purely fluff in 4e. Why does everyone get so excited about "My unaligned players are doing [insert something abiguously evil]!" Alignments are just a reminder written on the character sheet to the player saying "this is how I intended to play the character." That's it. It never even has to come to the DM's attention. How NPC's see them (since there are no longer any alignment discerning abilities) depends entirely upon the characters' actions actions. A DM doesn't have to know their alignment to see what they're doing.


This is exactly right - there is nothing so far dependant on alignment, so the game can be played simply on the consequences of the players actions, not on what alignment they wrote down before ever picking up a d20.

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5 years ago  ::  Aug 09, 2008 - 7:36AM #127
WinglessDemon
Date Joined: Aug 18, 2007
Posts: 16
let them do what they want, kill npc, burn homes, remember they don't have to justify their actions to you, but you do have to justify the actions of the world to them, at what point does the town guard simply throw them in the cells or give a kill on sight order. i found that showing the same repercussion for real life crime in the game tends to end needless violence. The same time, remember some thing they need to do to get by. so dont get down on them to much.
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5 years ago  ::  Aug 10, 2008 - 5:51PM #128
MektonZero
Date Joined: Jun 22, 2008
Posts: 366
The player is trying to see "neutral" as some kind of balance sheet, the problem is that he's putting the wrong numbers in the columns. Give to Charity +1 point, Save a town +10 points, shoplift -1 point. Unfortunately evil isn't so forgiving, kill an innocent person because they annoyed you is about a billion in the negative column.

It's a staple of heroic fiction that a hero can spend the rest of their entire lifetime (or even several lifetimes) trying to atone for one truly evil act, knowing full well that all the good they do for the rest of their lives can't ever erase the wrong that they have done.
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5 years ago  ::  Aug 14, 2008 - 4:13AM #129
Abel_Knightlord
Date Joined: Jul 3, 2008
Posts: 54
A question I'd like to ask: How cooperative are your NPCs generaly ?
Because there could be a cause in that. If they are helpfull and only ask justified payment or reason for services then I have not much to add.

But if they are all:
- Prophets or sages who can't be bothered to give a straight answer
- Authorities who refuse to believe the PCs warning about the latest threat or defending against a wrongfull accusation
- People who send them on annoying fetch quests in exchange for a (to them) small job or item or information.
- Mistrusting civilians
- Merchants who insist on players paying full price despite the fact the monsters are literaly just outside about to butcher every living being in sight.

Then I'd also seriously consider going into what Mass Effect refers to as the Renegade path. Maybe not so much on table RPGs, but CRPGs tend to have NPCs treat characters as if they were suckers ready to do any dirty job for a small service. Maybe your player has been playing one of these games a little too much and went: "That's it. I can't stand it anymore".
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5 years ago  ::  Aug 14, 2008 - 4:31AM #130
Derren_S.
Date Joined: Mar 26, 2002
Posts: 1,732
The problem is that unaligned isn't just a renamed neutral (especially when you ask the 4E supporters) but means that this person doesn't care about the struggle between good and evil.

So technically unaligned persons can behave however they want and stay unaligned.
And even if you make him evil, that does not have any consequences in game as there is no way for others to detect alignment and there are no power to my knowledge that have any relation to it.

Basically you can only say "I don't like how your current character acts and thus forbid you from playing him (make him an NPC/Kill him off). Make a new character."
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