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LuciferNietzsche wrote:

Suffice to say, the "maintaining a balance" schtik of TN is the exception, not the rule. TN is barely different than Unaligned, with Unaligned simply being a little stronger in its description.

Actually... at least as far back as 2e, TN was the "balancer" alignment. Neutral was reserved for animals. There is a hilarious example encounter in the 2e PHB which depicts a party made up of every type of alignment... several of them were already dead before the encounter started :D

Gosh, I wish I could find a copy of it online.

Anyhow, this is why "TN is balancing" is around, and why 3e got rid of it in favor of Neutral - it was literally impossible to be in an adventuring party and play straight TN. This was because the party generally wins a lot, and eventually it's going to upset the balance of good & evil or law & chaos... which means the TN party member is going to have to find a way to stop the party, or do some extra evil on the side. CN was also the "insane" alignment there too.

So, for the sake of us old-timers, how about we refer to 3e neutral as "Neutral" and 2e True Neutral as "True Neutral."

Re: OP
Why is alignment still important? It's to give guidance to beginner players about the sort of behavior that is acceptable in the campaign. Maybe this is the "training wheels" version of alignment, but that is why D&D has always been about non-evil parties and why the 4e books in particular focus so much on the good side of PCs.

In this DM's case (has he posted in awhile?) there is one PC that is subverting the flavor of the campaign by claiming his Evil actions are UA. It may be helpful for the OP to consider "alignment as a guide" and just tell his player this isn't the sort of game he's running. If the player objects, then see about running an Evil Game (if you can stomach it).

BlitzBitz wrote:

...But mainly I'm having a little trouble with a player that chose to be Unaligned(4E), which is fine by me, but he purposefully kills innocent NPCs for the sake of getting their items or wealth and then either:
- Justifies himself as being unaligned, thinking that gives him the right to do whatever he pleases.

- Gives the NPCs a warning that if they don't give him what he wants or stop doing whatever is annoying him he will kill them....


The later usually ends in another Dead NPC also since they can't help it if they are there for a purpose...

Well, sounds to me like you got anevil player that doesn't know his place. What level is he, and put Knights in the town [like they heard som killings were happeneing there, or somthing like that.] There LG and will protect the vilage for free, but only if they give them a place to rest, food and water. Like a house in the middle of town. And they regulary go and scout. Make it so, if your character decides to kill someone, one of the knights witnesses it, and blows a warning horn [of corse he might die, because he is all along, but his allys will come running and witness this act of monstrosity as well.]

So, now the Knights of the White Pheonix have all arived at the seen of the crime as soon as there fellow knight falls [I would make a group of 10 or so, all haveing ally abilitys like when X amount of squares away from a White Pheonix monster, it gains Y bonus to ???]. That leaves the PC's one Option, RUN!!! of corse they will have wanted posters, and they party would be considered evil.

After that act, the party will think twice about killing mindlessly and acting evil, not unaligned. NC would never kill to gain something or if someone bothered them, only LE and below [in 3.x] so of corse Unaligneds worst will be CN and Evils best will be LE [acording to honor wise, sounds to me like this guy aint got no honor.]

Oh, also, whenever they do on of theses "unaligned things" jsut make it so the White Peonix Knights always somehow see them do it, and magecly there bounty rises [and more Pheonix Knight hunting them down.] So, in the public eye, there evil, even if they claim to be inocent and good/unaligned.

Hot this helps and you dont have a problem with this guy anymore, teach him a lesson that only Evil people deserve.

~EDIT~

Also, unaligned dont get to do "Whatever they want," because the have as much moral honor as a guy you walk up to in school. Killing/doing whatever you want to get somthing you want is an evil act, and thats what most people that steal are, killing for money is BAD.

BlitzBitz wrote:

seeing as how he doesn't actively seek to harm people, but if they come accross him and... say annoy him, they most likely will die. NPCs at least.

How is that *not* actively trying to harm people?

I've wondered if Unaligned has become the new temporary haven of those who can't play evil, cause the game they're in doesn't let them be evil, and can't be CN, cause CN doesn't exist anymore.

Unaligned, to me, is the "its kinda how most of us are in real life". Now, to be clear, just by being a huge asshat or a douchebag doesn't make you evil. You can still be unaligned and be a complete shmuck, but it doesn't let you go all gangsta and GTA cars and beat up hookers and stuff.

The neat thing about 4e is that unless something is of an appropriate encounter level, you're not going to get jack from it. So no more killing NPCs and lewting their bodies. If you're jumping some random shopkeeper, sorry, he's not an encounter level that gives anything worthwhile. In order to get anything worthwhile, woops, you have to work for it like any other encounter.

Still, OP Player does seem to be a 'I want to play this way, screw the rest of the party, the story, your gaming fun, your rules, hahahahahaha' kinda player. He's being abusive to the rest of the players, taking what should be collaborative fun, and making it another wacky episode of the funny (and soon to be cancelled sitcom) "What kinda whacky crap will Unaligned Wiz do this session?!"

Valdark wrote:

That's where the guards come in.

That, or a new Enemy that see's this coruption and has mega bonuses for every ally by it. Like a lvl 10 that gets +2 AC for every other one 5 squares from it, and/or a +2 to attack and damage. Make it so they always stke in Squadrens, and they will think twice about doing something evil.