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5 years ago ::
Jul 14, 2008 - 5:53PM
#51
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Date Joined:
Aug 22, 2007
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I wouldn't even try to find a legal ruling on this players behavior and decide to punish him with declaring the character Evil. I like unaligned remaining undefined. But punish his charactor for being anti social. Have the tavern, the smithy and the local temple of Pelor close thier doors to the character. That would be a reasonable reaction to such anti social behavior as mentioned in the OP. If he continues declare him a public nusance. Send a posse after him, complete with dangerious adventure types. Really I wouldn't let the whole I'm unaligned argument stop the community the character harasses from punishing that character. Really, I would punish a charcter who behaved like that even if they declared they were evil and I were running an evil campaign.
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5 years ago ::
Jul 14, 2008 - 6:02PM
#52
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Date Joined:
Jun 15, 2008
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A DM has every right to exclude evil acting characters from the group.
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5 years ago ::
Jul 14, 2008 - 7:36PM
#53
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Sounds like he is taking actions which should have consequences, no matter what alignment he claims to be. Don't try to force his actions by arguing alignment. Force his actions with consequences. There are obviously other people in your campaign world...would they not react negatively to his rampages and abuse? Have the local wizard guild rebuke him for making them all look bad. Have the local guard throw him in a jail guarded by magical wards. Have a party of NPC adventurers hired by a local lord to deal with the "evil" wizard who is abusing his citizens. Your player can call himself neutral or unaligned all he wants, but I doubt the NPCs he victimizes view it that way.
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5 years ago ::
Jul 15, 2008 - 11:06AM
#54
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Date Joined:
Aug 31, 2007
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Actually stealing is Chaotic, not evil.
Ownership is a concept of civilization. By ignoring that concept you are anti-law, or chaotic, not evil.
There are cultures in the world that have no concept of ownership and live in relative harmony. I would hardly call them evil people.
I would consider that a situation where motivation matters.
In general, stealing because you have no concept of ownership is chaotic. Stealing because you want to own something is evil.
Jay
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5 years ago ::
Jul 15, 2008 - 11:59AM
#55
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Date Joined:
Jul 14, 2008
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Awareness: if a person is completely unaware that what they are doing is seen as wrong, they get some leeway. But not overdoing it.
Fiendish Codex 2 had a specific entry: Stealing from the needy. Which suggests that other forms of stealing might be less evil "robbin' the rich to give to the poor" Depending on whether the aforesaid rich were overtaxing, or cheating to get rich, etc.
But Less evil doesn't mean Not Evil. Might just mean that the reasons for doing it, and the amount of good caused by doing so (saving people from starvation or eviction) might make up for it.
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5 years ago ::
Jul 15, 2008 - 1:14PM
#56
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Date Joined:
Jun 26, 2008
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I believe it's important for a given player that says they are "Unaligned from being above it all" a la Raven Queen followers should declare to you what that means to them: not just "I can do anything" but actually relate it to your cause.
An RQ follower will pursue the destruction of undead and followers of Orcus. Killing those that interfere with their mission is consistant (non evil guards working for a secretly evil ruler for example), though they would likely warn people first. Stealing to survive also fits into this "I'm more force of nature than person" mentality as well. Stealing for wealth? No. Killing for fun? No. If you are serving these "higher yet not-good causes" your sense of self entitlement is forfeit. They'll still be liable for consequences of their actions even then.
An unaligned follower of the civilization god (Kord?) would be indentical to lawful good inside their civilization, but need not show no mercy against the tribe of natives that his country is displacing or other natural beings. Reverse that for some of the nature god followers (and druids)
In contrast a "neutral" unaligned character like a follower of Sehenine would be selfish, could steal against the well off, but not the extent of threating or blatant action. The difference between them and (chatoic) good is heroic actions would require a fit with their motives (saving a friend) or offer some reward; the good character would do them for no obvious benefit.
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5 years ago ::
Jul 15, 2008 - 1:39PM
#57
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Date Joined:
Sep 14, 2007
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The original post is ridiculous to me when I read it. Unaligned is basically the average person. They don't want to hurt anyone, they don't want to look out for people not directly a part of their lives. What you describe is someone actively being antagonistic. Evil at best, and looks more like Chaotic Evil.
I disagree, however, with the idea of talking to the player, or having story consequences. A meteor rockets out of the sky and strikes him in the head, killing him instantly. Anyone that is trying to be disruptive to a game like this is not welcome at my table. I'm not infringing on his ability to tell the story the way he wants--he just didn't get out of the way of my story (and meteor) fast enough.
I'm going on the assumption that you don't want evil characters in the party, or you wouldn't be posting. (If it is the case, change his alignment to evil and move on.)
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5 years ago ::
Jul 15, 2008 - 1:51PM
#58
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I would say the OP's wizard is definately NOT unaligned. Give me your stuff or die is going out of your way to cause harm to others. First set basic alignment shift rules before a game session. If this does not help start giving the wizard terrible nightmares after he performs some evil antics, visitations from some evil god (or Orcus if you prefer), have him make a con check after 2 or 3 nights of this fail equals loss of a spell slot for the day. Do this to other players also, if they are taking an evil path. Borrow from SWSE- blatantly evil acts gain the attention of the dark powers and you slide towards evil. You gain one or more dark points for these transgressions and can have only as many dark points as your wisdom score. When these two are equal the character becomes a GM character. Then beef him up and throw 'em back at the party later on. This sets up nice campaign elements and neatly emphasizes the consequenes of following the dark path. @ Eugee nicely stated and I totally agree 
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5 years ago ::
Jul 15, 2008 - 11:19PM
#59
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In general, stealing because you have no concept of ownership is chaotic.
If a culture has no concept of ownership then taking things without permission would be part of the culture and by extension an implied law.
Given that, I also contend that 'stealing' (for lack of a better term in a society with no concept of ownership) would be lawful and hording an item and preventing it from being freely used by the people as a whole would be chaotic.
Stealing because you want to own something is evil.
We take things from others because we want them all the time. If I apply for a job and I am better at it than the current holder of the job and the employer then fires that worker, didn't I just 'steal' his job? Am I evil for that?
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5 years ago ::
Jul 15, 2008 - 11:55PM
#60
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If I apply for a job and I am better at it than the current holder of the job and the employer then fires that worker, didn't I just 'steal' his job? Am I evil for that?
Poor example. You didn't steal the job, you applied for it and got it when the previous person was fired. There was no theft involved.
If you covet something that belongs to another, and you take it by force, that is theft. Intentional and cruel.
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