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5 years ago ::
Jul 14, 2008 - 9:17AM
#31
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Date Joined:
Aug 10, 2005
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A number of posts have done a good job of handling the alignment problem in this case, and I don't have a lot to add to them.
I will say though that another part of the problem is the fact that Unaligned isn't just about actions or views, it's about specifically not choosing the side of good or evil. You can't just BE Evil. From what I've read, no matter how evil your views or actions, you're not technically Evil unless you specifically agree to serve the ways of Evil.
Alignment now strikes me as less about your character and more about which team you play for. You can do evil things and still not join the Evil team.
That's probably largely a matter of intrepretation, but I go with it.
But, the character seems to be quite disruptive to the game, and shouldn't be allowed to continue in such a manner without in-game consequences as previously suggested. I don't, however, think there's really any reason to force an alignment change.
For the record...I have an innate and distinct distaste for ethics and morality, in either direction of each axis to any degree. I do understand though that functional societies require a certain degree of specific cooperational behaviors, and adhere to that. I'm a pragmatist.
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5 years ago ::
Jul 14, 2008 - 9:42AM
#32
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Ok, so I read the actions of the troubling player. I'll go ahead and freely state that I think he's evil. Not just from the descriptions of alignment, but also by using common sense and my own moral judgment - what he's doing is wrong in almost any culture (except maybe Drow society).
ANYWAY, I occasionally run demo games of D&D and when players join my game I often don't know them at all. One of my tools is a hand-out that states VERY CLEARLY that I run a HEROIC game. One in which the characters, even rogues and thieves are HEROES in some way. I don't tolerate blatant acts of moral decay and evil. Players are asked to behave in a heroic manner and not murder for profit or battle to the death with their fellow players because "they got annoyed" (weak excuse by the way, tell any court that and you'll get the chair). Characters may threaten, bully, steal, and commit various crimes to achieve their goals or even attack each other, but ONLY when the story calls for it and the actions are not blatantly disruptive to the game. Murderous "unaligned" character that are supposedly "anti-heroes" are just not welcome. Be as cold, calculating, callous, and hard edged loner-ish as you want...just don't be evil because it ruins the fun for me, and when the DM's not having fun, he has a hard time making it fun for others.
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5 years ago ::
Jul 14, 2008 - 10:08AM
#33
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Date Joined:
Jun 28, 2008
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(except maybe Drow society)
In 3.x there was only one real law in drow society: don't get caught.
(weak excuse by the way, tell any court that and you'll get the chair)
Except that a lot of countries don't have the death penalty anymore.
I will say though that another part of the problem is the fact that Unaligned isn't just about actions or views, it's about specifically not choosing the side of good or evil. You can't just BE Evil. From what I've read, no matter how evil your views or actions, you're not technically Evil unless you specifically agree to serve the ways of Evil.
The differance between the alignment lies in the reason behind your actions.
A LG paladin would agree to clear a nest of *insert vile monster* because its a good thing to do.
An Unaligned warlock would agree to it because its fun, because of the reward, or for both reasons.
While an evil cleric would agree because it'd further his own power, or at least, more so than killing the innocent would.
The action is, at the base level, the same. Only the reason/motivation differs.
Being CE doesn't mean that you'll kill at every opportunity. It is bland, boring and the other party members should dissuade/persuade the CE member from killing someone.
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5 years ago ::
Jul 14, 2008 - 10:57AM
#34
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Date Joined:
Jan 14, 2005
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I would not put up with this as a DM.
Unaligned specifically mentions that you have basically chosen to 'not choose' in the cause of good or evil.
A PC that constantly bullies, even murders NPCs is choosing to act evil.
Whether on paper or not, the in game play style is evil.
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5 years ago ::
Jul 14, 2008 - 11:25AM
#35
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Date Joined:
Jun 15, 2008
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He is acting evil. Plain and simple. CN never gave people the license to be evil nor did unaligned.
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5 years ago ::
Jul 14, 2008 - 11:37AM
#36
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Date Joined:
Jun 28, 2008
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The guy's doing this because he thinks he can get away with it.
Seriously, "Be careful, if you don't give me what I want, I'll kill you!" isn't 'a fair warning', it's 'a threat', and playing that penny ante 'I'm neutral so I'm just protecting the balance by mugging people!' nonsense is just showing disrespect to you and the game.
My suggestion is to just have NPCs not have anything the guy wants. That hapless peasant was broke, that rich merchant was carrying glass gems, that 'magic sword' wasn't. Take away the reward for being a jackass, in other words. If he's still killing for the lulz of it, tell him straight up to knock it off or he's out of the group.
I'm all for roleplaying, but if someone can't enjoy playing a character unless the character's a sociopath, fella's got issues, plain and simple. If he just wants to set stuff on fire, well, there are plenty of video games that offer that sort of entertainment-D&D's a team sport, which means sometimes giving up immediate gratification so that the rest of the group can do something besides clean up your mess.
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5 years ago ::
Jul 14, 2008 - 12:44PM
#37
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Date Joined:
Jul 14, 2008
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Shouldn't it be Unaligned Characters? Players don't have alignments.
That said, Vile and Exalted make good baselines, maybe with adjustments. There are a lot of books and contradictions between them.
I like Vile's Lying isn't always evil if the cause is good and you are very careful view. More than the suggestions in later books (Exalted, champions of Ruin) that its always evil.
Neutral in 2nd ed was a bit too narrow: too much "balance" to the extent that you'd fight for both sides.
3rd ed neutral was precursor of Unaligned: people whio don't strongly behave in a Good or Evil fashion fitted.
Point to remember: Neutral and Unaligned aren't just those who aren't strongly either. They can also be used for those who will be ruthless in what they see as a good cause. How ruthless is the tricky part: where the line is drawn. Fits well for many darker heroes. Past a certain point, usually DM's discretion, no amount of heroism can make up for seriously evil behaviour. (Fiendish Codex 2 stressed that afterlife destination was heavily dependant on evil deeds, which outweigh good ones)
The Punisher is a trademark Evil Hero. Elric. And maybe others.
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5 years ago ::
Jul 14, 2008 - 12:45PM
#38
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The guy's doing this because he thinks he can get away with it.
Seriously, "Be careful, if you don't give me what I want, I'll kill you!" isn't 'a fair warning', it's 'a threat', and playing that penny ante 'I'm neutral so I'm just protecting the balance by mugging people!' nonsense is just showing disrespect to you and the game.
My suggestion is to just have NPCs not have anything the guy wants. That hapless peasant was broke, that rich merchant was carrying glass gems, that 'magic sword' wasn't. Take away the reward for being a jackass, in other words. If he's still killing for the lulz of it, tell him straight up to knock it off or he's out of the group.
I'm all for roleplaying, but if someone can't enjoy playing a character unless the character's a sociopath, fella's got issues, plain and simple. If he just wants to set stuff on fire, well, there are plenty of video games that offer that sort of entertainment-D&D's a team sport, which means sometimes giving up immediate gratification so that the rest of the group can do something besides clean up your mess.
When I see the word Unaligned, my mind immediately goes to the Malazan series. Unaligned characters in the books were heroes. Sure they were gruff, hard-hearted and merciless in battle (and very gruesome). But they were never murderers or blatant thieves.
This player the OP talks about needs a serious kick in the groin. The DM needs a kick in the arse. I mostly blame DMs for not taking control of THEIR game.
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5 years ago ::
Jul 14, 2008 - 12:52PM
#39
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Date Joined:
Jul 14, 2008
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This is Heroic Fantasy, after all. That said, the Hero can be extremely dangerous to be around "No worse fate could befall your people that to fall into the hands of a Hero" Dune.
Good heroes actively go out of their way to avoid doing evil things "because we're not them"
Unaligned heroes might have a little less self control when being mistreated, but that doesn't mean they would mistreat others without very good reasons.
Evil Heroes might do heroic deeds, but use very evil methods, like Elric.
Point to remember is an Evil character isn't free of virtues: but they might restrict such behaviour to their close friends or relatives. Savage Species had a section that stressed Evil characters can still be compassionate or self-sacrificing, just rarely, and to very few.
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5 years ago ::
Jul 14, 2008 - 1:00PM
#40
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Date Joined:
Nov 16, 2006
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Not to get into another thick soupy arguement, i'll try to keep this comment as atheistic as possible. We see good and evil as poles. The poles that, since old times, have used religion to dictate fgood versus evil. "Follow god [insert name here] be good". "Don't follow god [ insert name here] be evil/bad!" THis player is unaligned, meaning he has no moral compass to guide him to good or evil..he sort of 'sits on the fence'. then each of his actions should reflect this. THis is not his license to flip flop to both sides of the fence whenever he feels like it. Using the above historical explanation.....I have a simple solution. Within your game, do you have a God of Murder? A god of Greed? Or a single god with both of these within their portfolio? Make the god/godess Evil aligned..and slowly move his alignment towards this god, as seeing how all these actions are giving power to this dark god/godess, i'm sure the player will want to know his wanton disregard for life and responsibility for his actions...will have repercussions. 
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