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5 years ago ::
Jun 11, 2008 - 9:05AM
#71
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Date Joined:
Sep 21, 2007
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I think if we compare apples to apples You'll see that the wizard is not as different as you might think. It sounds VERY different, but try writing it out...
Here are the spell lists of two 9th level Wizards, one from 3.5 and one from 4E. (If I made any mistakes let me know)
These are the spells that might be memorized by a 9th level wizard with a 20 int:
4 cantrips
Detect magic
Light x 2
Read magic
6 first
Shield
Mage Armor
Magic Missile x2
Comprehend Language
Feather Fall
5 second
Resist Energy
Web
Fog Cloud
Flaming Sphere
Blur
4 third
Dispel Magic
FireBall
Fly
Stinking Cloud
3 fourth
Ice Storm
Greater Invisibility
Polymorph
2 fifth
Teleport
Symbol of pain
24 Spells per day.
As a ninth level Wizard in 4e, you can cast....(if we presume 3 encounters per day...)
Cantrips (At will - assume each is used 1/day)
Light:
Mage Hand
Ghost Sound
Prestidigitation
At Will (assume each is used twice per encounter)
Ray of Frost x 6
Thunder Wave x 6
Encounter
Chill Strike x3
Icy Rays x3
Winter's Wrath x3
Daily
Flaming Sphere
Ice Storm
Bigby's Icy Grasp
Utility
Feather Fall
Invisibility
Rituals (assume an average of 1/day each)
TensersFloating Disk
Endure Elements
Comprehend Language
Knock
WaterWalk
35 Spells per day.
So the 4e Wizard might reasonably expect to cast nearly 50% more spells in a day than the 3.5 Wizard, and this could increase if combats last longer than 5 rounds. What about spells known? The 4E wizard can easily add 5-10 more daily and utility spells to their books. Adding 5 more rituals that they bought/found/researched seems easy to justify. So add another 15 more spells known.
I don't see where this pales in comparison to a 3.5 Wizard in any way.
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5 years ago ::
Jun 11, 2008 - 9:07AM
#72
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Date Joined:
Apr 28, 2001
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I have something that can work.
Allow Wizards to research and stock up on all manner of noncombat-applicable spells. Preferably, these would be used outside of combat and have significant casting times.
Alternatively, model it after the 3e Wizard and give the Wizard player random castings of totally useless effects from a selection whose size is of his choosing.
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5 years ago ::
Jun 11, 2008 - 9:19AM
#73
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Date Joined:
Jun 28, 2004
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I think if we compare apples to apples You'll see that the wizard is not as different as you might think.
In D&D 3.5 the mage can have a library of 10,000 spells, and each day he can choose which of these to memorise (up to his limit).
Whereas your 4e mage has a very limited pool of spells to select from.
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5 years ago ::
Jun 11, 2008 - 9:23AM
#74
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Date Joined:
Jun 28, 2004
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Alternatively, model it after the 3e Wizard and give the Wizard player random castings of totally useless effects from a selection whose size is of his choosing.
I suppose in 3e if you took no consideration to which spells to memorise, you might find them useless when it came time to cast spells. And we can't see the future, true enough, but we can plan ahead and take advantage of what we do have.
With a greater selection of spells, the wizard can be the instigator, as he can prepare spells that will best fullfill his plans.
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5 years ago ::
Jun 11, 2008 - 9:37AM
#75
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Date Joined:
Apr 28, 2001
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You can pretend that he has the Channel Spell feat and can channel his useless spells into his per-Encounters and his At-Wills.
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5 years ago ::
Jun 11, 2008 - 9:44AM
#76
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In D&D 3.5 the mage can have a library of 10,000 spells, and each day he can choose which of these to memorise (up to his limit).
Whereas your 4e mage has a very limited pool of spells to select from.
Okay, so in 3.5 he can have 10,000 spells. How many pages is that? How many spell books would the wizard have to lug around? And honestly, how many of those 10,000 would the wizard actually use a majority of the time? (Let's not forget that a wizard has to transcribe these spells into a spellbook to learn them, since he doesn't automatically learn spells; and it takes a good amount of time to transcribe even one spell [I think it was 1 hour per level of spell]) I mean, how many days would it have taken for a wizard to transcribe his entire spell book library? months?
I would hate having to wait for a player to decide which spells for the day he wanted to use because he had to spend half an hour to delineate from his library of tomes.
Sure, 4th might lower the total number of spells a wizard will know, but I'm sure if we compared percentages of useful spells, the 4th edition wizard would have a higher percentage of spells that are actually effective.
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5 years ago ::
Jun 11, 2008 - 3:16PM
#77
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Let me cast invisibility more than once a day if I want. Let me cast invisibility & Dimension Door in the same day or heck even feather fall & shield in the same day...
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5 years ago ::
Jun 11, 2008 - 3:21PM
#78
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I think if we compare apples to apples You'll see that the wizard is not as different as you might think. It sounds VERY different, but try writing it out...
Here are the spell lists of two 9th level Wizards, one from 3.5 and one from 4E. (If I made any mistakes let me know)
These are the spells that might be memorized by a 9th level wizard with a 20 int:
4 cantrips
Detect magic
Light x 2
Read magic
6 first
Shield
Mage Armor
Magic Missile x2
Comprehend Language
Feather Fall
5 second
Resist Energy
Web
Fog Cloud
Flaming Sphere
Blur
4 third
Dispel Magic
FireBall
Fly
Stinking Cloud
3 fourth
Ice Storm
Greater Invisibility
Polymorph
2 fifth
Teleport
Symbol of pain
24 Spells per day.
[b]As a ninth level Wizard in 4e, you can cast....(if we presume 3 encounters per day...)
Cantrips (At will - assume each is used 1/day)
Light:
Mage Hand
Ghost Sound
Prestidigitation
At Will (assume each is used twice per encounter)
Ray of Frost x 6
Thunder Wave x 6
Encounter
Chill Strike x3
Icy Rays x3
Winter's Wrath x3
Daily
Flaming Sphere
Ice Storm
Bigby's Icy Grasp
Utility
Feather Fall
Invisibility
Rituals (assume an average of 1/day each)
TensersFloating Disk
Endure Elements
Comprehend Language
Knock
WaterWalk
35 Spells per day.
So the 4e Wizard might reasonably expect to cast nearly 50% more spells in a day than the 3.5 Wizard, and this could increase if combats last longer than 5 rounds. What about spells known? The 4E wizard can easily add 5-10 more daily and utility spells to their books. Adding 5 more rituals that they bought/found/researched seems easy to justify. So add another 15 more spells known.
I don't see where this pales in comparison to a 3.5 Wizard in any way.[/[/b]QUOTE]
Huh.... no teleport, dispel magic, shield, mage armor & um.. how long does that invisibility spell of yours last?
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5 years ago ::
Jun 11, 2008 - 6:08PM
#79
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Date Joined:
Apr 28, 2001
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The mage can have both Dispel Magic in his spellbook and also Linked Portal (4e Teleport) in his Ritual Spellbook. The quoted poster simply didn't list it because she was comparing spells per day. Note that she said that the 4e Wizard had 5-10 unspecified dailies and utilities not mentioned, as well as 5 more rituals.
Mage Armor and Shield in 3e are workarounds to terrible Wizard AC. That problem has been dealt with in a more permanent form: you can now wear armor, and even if you don't, your Int will provide you AC.
There are no shortage of Spells Known here.
If the Wizard is limited in his Invis applications, it's only so that he doesn't render the Hide skill completely worthless.
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5 years ago ::
Jun 11, 2008 - 6:54PM
#80
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Date Joined:
Jul 20, 2004
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I applaud your honesty, and find it interesting that you recognize that giving the wizard more spells/powers makes it overpowered compared to the other classes, but you still want it anyway....
No I don't want it anyways. I'm just saying that to fix the wizard so it's a bloody wizard again, instead of a sorcerer, you'd have to break the game. The system they have in place does not allow for a wizard. I am just irked is all. They didn't want the hard job of making an actual balanced magic system so we now have this PoS. I could probably make a balanced magic system...but then again if I'm gonna do that, I can just fix 3.5 magic system MUCH easier as I only have to modify things there instead of start from scratch.
I completely understand how different the class must seem. But I think if you quit focussing on how its different than previous wizards and focus on how you could play it, you might find you like it better.
If its the whole elemental attack/aoe thing, perhaps consider a warlock who I think has powers that are more subtle.
And no I don't wanna be a warlock either damn it. I want a WIZARD. Is it so hard that I want a class that has been in existance since basic and is one of the 4 basic cornerstone of the entire brand name?!? From looking, this doesn't look like D&D to me. It has no cleric and no wizard. Yes the rogue and fighter are still around...and they are very well done too no less...but it just feels wrong.
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