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5 years ago ::
Jun 06, 2008 - 7:44AM
#71
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Date Joined:
Aug 27, 2007
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But what is it about the minion which makes it so fragile? Assume both just stand there and voluntarily let you hit them. The kobold can still take 2-3 hits. The devil minion is kneeling over the moment you so much as sneeze on him.[/qoute]
They arnt "fragile" They are a pure game contrivance. They are there to provide a method of making an encounter have a cinematic feeling - the party of good guys fighting the BBEG and his army of followers. They have stats just slightly lower then a regular monster their level, meaning they are about the same chance to hit. WOTC basically just figured out the math for a regular monster is that it usually goes down in 4-6 successful hits by the PC's. So the minions last as long as the regular monster does, but it makes the encounter "feel bigger". See what I'm getting at?
And please remember, the encounters are ment to be level appropriate, so +/- 4 levels from the level of the PC's. 1st level PC's shouldn't be fighting 6th level Demon minions. and 10th level PC's shouldn't be facing 4th level minions.
Or to do away with the issue of defenses, lets use the fighter's cleave ability, which does not involve an attack roll, and thus makes AC irrelevant. The idea is still there - each legion devil is automatically falling to cleave's secondary attack, the 1st lv kobold isn't until the 4th or 5th hit.
It is said that the 1hp is supposed to be an abstraction, but surely suspension of belief can only go so far...
Its a mechanical contrivance. Its not suppose to be realistic, but rather be cinematic in nature. mathmatically, it works out.
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5 years ago ::
Jun 06, 2008 - 7:57AM
#72
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Date Joined:
Aug 27, 2007
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Rituals take so darn long to cast. How is that considered versatility when you are no longer able to teleport during combat, raise your dead PCs as a standard action, gate in allies on a whim etc. Even knock takes 10 minutes to cast.
And how do you not consider those mechanically unbalancing, along with SoD effects that require no roll to hit, or other instawin effects like solid fog. Wizards were way overpowered in comparison to other classes in 3.X, especially the melee ones. So overpowered, it made little sense to play soemthing that wasn't a caster at high levels.
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5 years ago ::
Jun 06, 2008 - 8:09AM
#73
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Date Joined:
Aug 27, 2007
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So let me get this straight...
Say at 1st lv, a kobold warrior would be a challenge to my party because we are all still puny weaklings. So we have our work cut out for us when fighting it.
At say, lv25, when fighting a pit fiend and his legion devil summons, we are much much stronger than back then. This reflects us being able to 1-shot lesser fiends. That we are unable to do the same to 1st lv kobolds is irrelevant because we are not expected to face them at this juncture?
It seems to make more sense the way you phrased it. I guess I have my fair share of unlearning to do. Thanks for being so patient with me, all of you.
Its exactly that. A whole thread of people not getting that simple concept over on the monsters forum. Glad you got it so quickly.
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5 years ago ::
Jun 06, 2008 - 8:13AM
#74
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Date Joined:
Aug 27, 2007
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It's the *relative level* that matters. A 1st level party can never face a Level 10 minion. To them, the same demon would appear as a level 5 Solo encounter.
And that's the gist of it. "Bob the Skinflayer" will go from Level 5 Solo to Level 7 Elite to Level 8 "normal" to Level 10 Minion as the players level up. (I am making these numbers up.) By the time the PCs are level 10, Bob just isn't a threat anymore unless he shows up with twenty of his buddies.
actually, no they wouldn't. Its not designed to function on its own against a group, and the encounter mechanic would break down if you used a higher level minion as a solo. You can convert it to a solo, but shouldn't be using it straight.
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5 years ago ::
Jun 06, 2008 - 8:56AM
#75
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Date Joined:
Aug 17, 2007
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actually, no they wouldn't. Its not designed to function on its own against a group, and the encounter mechanic would break down if you used a higher level minion as a solo. You can convert it to a solo, but shouldn't be using it straight.
That's exactly what I was saying, Sparrowhawk.
If there's a high-level "minion" that you would like to use in an encounter with a lower-level party, you need to convert the enemy from "minion" to normal/elite/solo.
Drop his level.
Tweak his stats.
Give him HPs.
Likewise, if you want a previously bad-ass NPC to show up in a higher-level fight as a lacky to the "real" bad guy, boost his level and tweak his stats, but convert him into a minion.
In either case, it is the "same" person from a fluff perspective.
In the lower-level scenario, they are significant foes that are a challenge to defeat. In the higher-level scenario, they don't have the karma/skill/whatever to last long against the players and exist merely to be squashed while the heroes charge the real threat.
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5 years ago ::
Jun 06, 2008 - 9:26AM
#76
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Date Joined:
Sep 25, 2007
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And how do you not consider those mechanically unbalancing, along with SoD effects that require no roll to hit, or other instawin effects like solid fog. Wizards were way overpowered in comparison to other classes in 3.X, especially the melee ones. So overpowered, it made little sense to play soemthing that wasn't a caster at high levels.
Exactly true, we have a lot of players in my group, up to 8 although not everyone can make every game and of those we have 1 ranger, 1 monk, 1 fighter and everyone else is a multiclass wizard of some flavour and the reason for it is that a high level wizard can do just about anything. So while at level 20 my ranger can do D6 + 10-13ish damage with my scimitars up to, in theory, 7 times a turn (in practice it tends to be 2-3 times what with AC and the BAB-suckage for the second, third and fourth attacks) the daggerspell mage in my group can do a couple of twinned, maximised, vampiric-touch backstabs (so glad the term Backstab is back, I missed you in 3rd ed) that steal over a 100 health from the enemy, with improved invisibility cast and whilst shooting lasers out of her eyes! Well, not quite the last one, but that's without even breaking a sweat.
Sure my ranger can fight all day and they'll run out of spells, but you know what? That has never happened in about 16 years of gaming. You camp when the mages and clerics get low.
There are serious problems in 3.5 with relative power; the fighter, monk and ranger in my group are no slouches but they simply can't compare to casters.
I'm particularly glad to see teleport and similar spells taking longer to cast; they always struck me as cheap (Edit: cheap when used in combat, that is).
Regarding Minions and Hit Points:
Hit Points have always been abstractions, but in fourth edition they are further abstracted. In real life, a solid whack with a longsword will do some serious, if not deadly damage, no matter how good of an accountant you are.
Even if I'm a level 10 vice-president?
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5 years ago ::
Jun 06, 2008 - 9:41AM
#77
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Date Joined:
Feb 24, 2008
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Who says a master of the arcane has a variety of tactics at his disposal? Mages having a few signature spells is very COMMON. If you took fireball, and you're fighting fire elementals, tough. Why SHOULD you have more options than members of another class? You shouldn't.
this isn't a 1vs1 game where everything needs to be balanced....if u read some fantasy you'll know that fighters slash things while wizards cast different spells: this is how it should be.....and btw the right way should be adding options to other classes not nerfing everything imho....tobe of battle:book of 9 swords was good...
anyway until WoTC will publish some new splatbooks i will stick with 3.5 i need options to not be bored...
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5 years ago ::
Jun 06, 2008 - 10:39AM
#78
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this isn't a 1vs1 game where everything needs to be balanced....
i need options to not be bored...
Well there you go, the class is now playable from day 1 of your adventuring career, you no longer have to wait until later to start enjoying your toon.
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5 years ago ::
Jun 06, 2008 - 11:44AM
#79
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Date Joined:
Aug 27, 2007
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That's exactly what I was saying, Sparrowhawk.
If there's a high-level "minion" that you would like to use in an encounter with a lower-level party, you need to convert the enemy from "minion" to normal/elite/solo.
Drop his level.
Tweak his stats.
Give him HPs.
Likewise, if you want a previously bad-ass NPC to show up in a higher-level fight as a lacky to the "real" bad guy, boost his level and tweak his stats, but convert him into a minion.
In either case, it is the "same" person from a fluff perspective.
In the lower-level scenario, they are significant foes that are a challenge to defeat. In the higher-level scenario, they don't have the karma/skill/whatever to last long against the players and exist merely to be squashed while the heroes charge the real threat.
My apologies, i though you meant a direct port over, which wont work. They were insisting you should be able to do that on the minions thread on the notion that "if they have the same XP its the same challange".
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5 years ago ::
Jun 06, 2008 - 11:59AM
#80
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Date Joined:
Aug 17, 2007
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My apologies, i though you meant a direct port over, which wont work. They were insisting you should be able to do that on the minions thread on the notion that "if they have the same XP its the same challange".
I think people are intentionally getting it wrong so that they can justify hating 4e. 
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