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5 years ago ::
Jun 03, 2008 - 8:16AM
#61
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Date Joined:
Aug 17, 2007
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Umm...Your 300hp barb can't survive a 30s dip in a pool of acid. Unless he was a full blooded outsider, or a half green dragon, or something that had acid immunity. Otherwise he's goo. After all you need fire immunity to take a dip in a pool of magma, fire resistance doesn't cut it.
As per 3.5 RAW, immersion in Lava is 20d6/round and Acid is 10d6/round. 30 seconds (5 rounds) of acid immersion will do 275 points of damage and - per RAW - is survivable.
Anyway, I'm not trying to discount the inherent toughness of some of our fantasy heroes. They can literally hold themselves together through sheer force of will -- that's why you are a HERO with HIT POINTS and not a minion. And to survive a dip in acid, you will need to be in the Epic Destiny levels...at which point you can already literally cheat death. You are not a normal person -- you have a touch of the divine (or something) within you.
EDIT: The 4e Healing Surges really support the idea that the hero checks himself out, maybe ties of a strip of cloth across the deeper "flesh wounds" and then just keeps on going. Again, the key is that the wounds were never fatal ones. The magic of PCs is that it's hard to hit them anywhere that's fatal or permanently crippling.
That being said, I wasn't talking about PCs. I was talking about monsters. 
Most monsters that you can use the "toughness" argument on will *never* make suitable minions. Dragons are like that. Titans, from your example, are also play old tough. A spear through the heart or a decapitation will kill either one, but it's not within the realm of possibilities for a PC to ever do that --- so they never become minions. Now, if you were playing a level 57 God of War, perhaps one-shotting a dragon will be an option.
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5 years ago ::
Jun 03, 2008 - 10:21AM
#62
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Date Joined:
Jun 21, 2006
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There is a big difference between opting to stick with a few signature spells despite knowing much more, and being forced to use the same few spells over and over again because you did not have access to more spells.
Well, you can learn double the number of daily spells avalible to you, and memorize some of them. You can chop and change each day.
im more worried that your not flexible. Say as a wizard i pick fireball as an ecounter spell. Now i know were going to face say fire elementas who are immune to fire (for sake of argument say they are). Here i am a level 30 master of arcane,,, and sorry you cant change that.. your stuck with fireball. Meaning that if you use your three other encounters.. your hosed.. that fireball sits there. In 3.5 i could drop fireball for a haste or forcelance or something else.
Fireball as an encounter spell? Impossible, Fireball is a daily spell, which you have to prepare out of double the number of daily spells you are actually able to cast.
Just because you are a master of Arcane doesn't mean monsters suddenly lose immunities to you, or become incredibly vunlnerable to all your spells.
If anything I say is wrong, clueless or spelt incorrectly, it is because, I am, in general, wrong, clueless and... Well, I'm usually spelt correctly.
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5 years ago ::
Jun 03, 2008 - 6:09PM
#63
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[W] = Weapons Damage, so 1[W] is normal 2[W] is times 2.
Actually 2[W] means that you would roll twice as many dice for the damage roll.
Examples:
1d8 longsword damage would be treated as 2d8 damage for the attack.
2d4 Falchion damage would be treated as 4d4 damage for the attack.
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5 years ago ::
Jun 04, 2008 - 10:00PM
#64
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Date Joined:
May 21, 2008
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Hi, I was curious on something that might semi-fit into this topic. I'm still waiting on my books to come in to get full details but what is the easiest class to start off with? I have several players who just play for the rp so they play as rogues and fighters since their combat abilities are easy to understand and remember. These players hate wizards and sorcerers and having to keep track of a ton of abilities. So is 4th edition viable for them considering our 3.5 games usually get between 10-14th level before ending *if its true that it takes the same amount of time as 3.5 to go to 30 then in 4.0 that'll be around the low-to mid 20's*? Because with all the daily/encounter/at-will powers every class gets they might feel its too complicated.
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5 years ago ::
Jun 05, 2008 - 6:32AM
#65
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Date Joined:
Aug 17, 2007
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I'm still waiting on my books to come in to get full details but what is the easiest class to start off with? [...] These players hate wizards and sorcerers and having to keep track of a ton of abilities. [...] Because with all the daily/encounter/at-will powers every class gets they might feel its too complicated.
I don't believe the problem will be that the easy classes have become hard.
The situation is that the hard classes have become easy.
The powers are no more complicated than remembering that your fighter can Trip or that your ranger has the Many Shot feat. I believe that even players who prefer simple melee classes will be able to jump into this new edition with ease.
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5 years ago ::
Jun 05, 2008 - 8:28AM
#66
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Date Joined:
Aug 19, 2006
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Imagine the spells section of the previous PHB.
EACH class needs that if you want that.
Moreover, what does it add to the game? Not a whole lot.
Better to be clean, concise, and have a few good options than tons of meaningless ones and not very interesting ones with a few gems.
I agree with OP. I think a wizard needs more versatility and should be treated differently; they already are if you consider spell books and rituals. Actually all the classes could use more powers. Only 2 at wills? Boring. only 4 encounters? That's basically on encounter spell per fight then back to the 1 of 2 at wills for the rest of the fight. Geez.
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5 years ago ::
Jun 05, 2008 - 8:30AM
#67
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Date Joined:
Aug 19, 2006
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I came up with an alternate Power Table. Here, take a look. It's similar to the way Tome of Battle does their powers in regards to readied/known. Also after you take a short rest you can change out your readied powers.
This i love. I was just thinking why do you have to get rid of your old powers for new ones? Why cant you keep them all? Would this really unbalance something? I dont think so and it would add greater choice for the player. Only thing i would change is adding more at wills.
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5 years ago ::
Jun 05, 2008 - 8:36AM
#68
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Date Joined:
Jul 21, 2006
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Regarding the low-seeming damage:
Don't neglect to consider the orbs/staves/wands which now offer bonuses similar to weapns. Your +6 wand adds 6 to your attacks and damage rolls for spells. It's not a whole lot, but there are many small things like that that add up.
Regarding Minions and Hit Points:
Hit Points have always been abstractions, but in fourth edition they are further abstracted. In real life, a solid whack with a longsword will do some serious, if not deadly damage, no matter how good of an accountant you are. Taking 19 serious whacks with a longsword and still being quite fine, thank you very much, is a bit hard to believe. If one considers hit points more as fight points or karma, then things like minions and healing surges make more sense. It is at zero hit points that fatal damage is dealt. Before that, it might be a broken nose, scorched skin that hurts like hell, a numbed shield arm, twisted ankle, a flesh wound or two, or that nebulous feeling that makes coming back from behind in a sports game so difficult.
In that light, minions are enemies with no karma. They aren't delicate so much as they don't get to deflect your sword thrust, or roll with your blow like a hero would. The actual phyisical hurt is the same from one to another.
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5 years ago ::
Jun 05, 2008 - 8:36AM
#69
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Just how long are your combats lasting that you need that many goram encounter/day abilities to cover it?
Day abilities kinda lose their edge if you're able to fire two off every single fight, as well as a full compliment of potent encounter abilities.
If that's the case, why even bother with encounter abilities and at-will powers? Why not just go straight for nothing but day abilities...
....oh yeah, because they wanted early level play to be as deep and involved as late level play.... and for your powers to actually -matter- in their use.
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5 years ago ::
Jun 05, 2008 - 8:48AM
#70
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Date Joined:
May 25, 2004
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Hit Points have always been abstractions, but in fourth edition they are further abstracted. In real life, a solid whack with a longsword will do some serious, if not deadly damage, no matter how good of an accountant you are. Taking 19 serious whacks with a longsword and still being quite fine, thank you very much, is a bit hard to believe. If one considers hit points more as fight points or karma, then things like minions and healing surges make more sense. It is at zero hit points that fatal damage is dealt. Before that, it might be a broken nose, scorched skin that hurts like hell, a numbed shield arm, twisted ankle, a flesh wound or two, or that nebulous feeling that makes coming back from behind in a sports game so difficult.
In that light, minions are enemies with no karma. They aren't delicate so much as they don't get to deflect your sword thrust, or roll with your blow like a hero would. The actual phyisical hurt is the same from one to another.
I think that's a really good and insightful explanation, actually.
(Minor or not-so-minor quibble: it would be really helpful if this type of fluff made it into the 4E core books. It would prevent a lot of confusion and emotional forum posts. Maybe WoTC is not obligated to do that, but it sure would've been nice of them to think about us rationalizing role-players)
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