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quill18 wrote:

Any kobolds you face at level 25 should be classified as minions (unless they are the supreme champion of all kobolds, maybe).

Not even the scaling rules will let you make a kobold from the MM at level 25 that's a real challenge.

If you want Fap-Fap the legendary kobold gladiator to be a real challenge, that's when you break out the PC rules, build him as a level 30 two-weapon ranger, apply the Solo monster mods, and unleash him on your unsuspecting PCs.

I don't feel like the wizard has been nerfed, particularly. I do think the mystery and allure of the class is gone however.

Since 1E, the megic-user (and pretty much every other class) felt very different from non spell-casting classes. The mechanics for casters and casting were very different than those for non-casters.

Now, every character feels mechanically the same. Everyone has powers. That the wizard class calls their powers 'spells' is almost incidental.

The primary benefit of this system is that the classes will be much easier to program into the upcoming MMORPG, and much easier to balance for PvP. The same code base and interface will work for every class.

runestar wrote:

Eh...I was referring to using limited wish to duplicate crucial spells like raise dead or have the cleric cast revivify, sorry as I did not make that clear from the start.:P

If you're complaining about the lack of Wish spells, we may have to agree to disagree.

Also, Revivify is non-core, right? If your argument is "4e doesn't have any splatbooks yet", then that's a completely different story -- don't you think?

Finally, players DO have some pretty funky stuff they can do at epic levels that kinda side-steps the issue of death.

runestar wrote:

I have never really played hp as abstract myself, to be honest. To me (in 3e at least), your actual hp value can reflect exactly that - your capability to take and absorb damage.

*snip*

The cleric soldiers on despite multiple arrows sticking out from assorted wounds all over his bodies.

Tell me, does your cleric survive if the arrow strikes him directly in the heart? No. That's what happens when you lose your *last* hit point.

Yes, yes, you're generally tougher...but mostly Hit Points represent the luck/skill that turns a killing blow into a "flesh wound".

runestar wrote:

I have seen my fair share of fights portrayed in that manner in comics and on tv.

That's just it...4e is far, far more like an action movie/TV show.

Have you watched Kill Bill? During the fight in Japan, The Bride mows down dozens of gangmembers who were the TERROR of the Japanese underground. To civilians, these goons were badass elites. To The Bride, they were people you Cleaved on your way to the real target.

The Bride was a high-level PC, so the gangmembers became minions.

When she reached the boss, however, things shifted. Suddenly, here was someone that couldn't be killed by a single well-placed swing. The boss would, at the last minute, just barely dodge/parry the decapitating strike.

But eventually the boss started to get worn down...and attacks started to nick and cut and HURT. The boss became bloodied.

Finally, after both the hero and the boss were on the verge of collapse and exhaustion, the hero struck a decisive blow that the boss just could not avoid anymore.

See? If one of the goons was fighting a lower-level PC, he'd have had hit points and such too. The PC would have to wear him down before he could strike a killing blow.

But against a true master, a goon has NO HOPE to avoid any blows that gets past his basic defenses. A goon doesn't get nicked -- the hero just decapitates him in a single swing.

Entropi wrote:

Since 1E, the megic-user (and pretty much every other class) felt very different from non spell-casting classes. The mechanics for casters and casting were very different than those for non-casters.

Now, every character feels mechanically the same. Everyone has powers. That the wizard class calls their powers 'spells' is almost incidental.

Despite my pro-4e posts, I can 100% agree that this is a valid argument. (Though I don't agree that it's a problem.)

On the one hand, it's great that fighters have cool tricks now. On the other, what makes the classes mechanically unique? (Well, the powers - even between different Warlock pacts - do have different themes, but I agree that their uniqueness is much less than in previous editions.)

And all I say is: I dunno.

Rituals count for a lot, I'd say. Rituals are very different from Powers.

Roleplaying makes up for a lot of the rest of it. If I were to play a fighter, I wouldn't present it as using a specific maneuver. I mean, "Brutal Strike" isn't a defined action (whereas "Magic Missile" is.) I'm just hitting particularly hard -- and I can flavour it any way I want.

For me, it's not a problem -- but I concede that 4e has definitely homogenized the mechanics.