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5 years ago ::
Jun 03, 2008 - 1:57AM
#41
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Date Joined:
Aug 29, 2005
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This answers nothing.
I am just wondering how you all rationalize the apparent disconnect here. 
Hang on, I think I'm not following. What did you expect my one liner there to answer, and which is the apparent disconnect? It the apparent disconnect that a level 3 kobold non-minion can take more hits than a level 21 devil minion?
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5 years ago ::
Jun 03, 2008 - 2:01AM
#42
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Date Joined:
Jul 24, 2004
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Hang on, I think I'm not following. What did you expect my one liner there to answer, and which is the apparent disconnect? It the apparent disconnect that a level 3 kobold non-minion can take more hits than a level 21 devil minion?
That's the one.
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5 years ago ::
Jun 03, 2008 - 3:59AM
#43
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Date Joined:
Apr 14, 2007
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That's the one.
Meh, the kobold at the time (since obviously at level 21 it would die in one hit anyways) was the one who managed to block with his shield, duck more often, only get grazed by hits, etc.
The devil, is the one who is beheaded in a single blow, or gutted by a axe, etc. It probably is more resilient then a Kobold, but fate wasn't on its side.
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5 years ago ::
Jun 03, 2008 - 4:23AM
#44
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Date Joined:
Aug 21, 2007
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There is no disconnect when you realize that the rules are to give you the tools you need at any given moment to create fun, tense and challenging encounters.
The MM is not a simulation manual rating each monster in relation to each other.
It rate's the monsters in relation to PCs.
A Kobold is not physically tougher then a devil.
A kobold is a more difficult challenge to a player of the same level than a devil minion.
That's all.
You're still thinking in terms of 3.X's 'Everything simulated by the same rules' mentality. You just don't mix 1st level monsters and 21st level minions.
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5 years ago ::
Jun 03, 2008 - 4:32AM
#45
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Date Joined:
Jul 24, 2004
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So let me get this straight... Say at 1st lv, a kobold warrior would be a challenge to my party because we are all still puny weaklings. So we have our work cut out for us when fighting it. At say, lv25, when fighting a pit fiend and his legion devil summons, we are much much stronger than back then. This reflects us being able to 1-shot lesser fiends. That we are unable to do the same to 1st lv kobolds is irrelevant because we are not expected to face them at this juncture? It seems to make more sense the way you phrased it. I guess I have my fair share of unlearning to do. Thanks for being so patient with me, all of you. 
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5 years ago ::
Jun 03, 2008 - 4:36AM
#46
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Date Joined:
Apr 14, 2007
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Well strength/ability plays a roll, also luck and fate and narrative control does.
To use another example, your facing two orcs, ability wise their identical. But one is a minion, how do you know (out-of-game) he is a minion, because he is the one who couldn't dodge the first blow and was beheaded, or slipped in the mud and was impaled, etc. While the other doesn't have such narrative "ill-will" upon him, so fights like normal.
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5 years ago ::
Jun 03, 2008 - 5:09AM
#47
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Date Joined:
Aug 17, 2007
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Besides, cleave seems to have been designed for precisely that - to mow down minions.
Agreed.
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5 years ago ::
Jun 03, 2008 - 5:23AM
#48
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Date Joined:
Aug 17, 2007
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Rituals take so darn long to cast. How is that considered versatility when you are no longer able to teleport during combat, raise your dead PCs as a standard action, gate in allies on a whim etc. Even knock takes 10 minutes to cast.
You can't *long-range teleport* during combat, which avoids a lot of practical problems where you just can't ever kill a wizard (friend or foe). Heck, in my campaigns we always houseruled that Teleport took a minute to cast just to avoid that kind of silliness -- and sometimes we banned it altogether! 4th edition has no shortage of short-range teleports (and other movements) that are usable in combat.
As far as Raise Dead goes........it has a 1 minute casting time as per the 3.5 SRD, so you already can't do it as a standard action. Reincarnate is 10 minutes, as is Resurrection. I don't see a problem with being unable to cast Raise Dead in combat.
As far as Knock, I'd think the answer was obvious? If it only took a single action, it would make the rogue useless. Alternatively, you could make it a per-day utility power....but what a waste! Having it take an appreciable amount of time means that there's a distinct advantage to having a rogue, but you're not screwed if you don't have one.
While there are serious concerns you could present about 4th Edition, "rituals take too long" is just silly.
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5 years ago ::
Jun 03, 2008 - 5:46AM
#49
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Date Joined:
Aug 17, 2007
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I am just wondering how you all rationalize the apparent disconnect here.
Minions vs Normal vs Elite vs Solo is entirely relative to the player level. Hit Points are relative.
Time and time again in rules, in articles, and in message board posts it has been declared that HIT POINTS ARE ABSTRACTIONS.
Only the *last* hit point represents any kind of reality.
Everything else is something like: "Wow, that sword swing basically made it through all my defenses, and I just *barely* avoided being skewered. I got lucky...this time." *scratches off 15 HPs*
A minion represents a foe that is far enough below the PC's level of competence that they can't pull off these last-minute miracle "dodges". Any PC who can avoid the monster's shield will strike a true blow and kill it.
It's the *relative level* that matters. A 1st level party can never face a Level 10 minion. To them, the same demon would appear as a level 5 Solo encounter.
And that's the gist of it. "Bob the Skinflayer" will go from Level 5 Solo to Level 7 Elite to Level 8 "normal" to Level 10 Minion as the players level up. (I am making these numbers up.) By the time the PCs are level 10, Bob just isn't a threat anymore unless he shows up with twenty of his buddies.
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5 years ago ::
Jun 03, 2008 - 5:50AM
#50
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Date Joined:
Aug 17, 2007
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At say, lv25, when fighting a pit fiend and his legion devil summons, we are much much stronger than back then. This reflects us being able to 1-shot lesser fiends. That we are unable to do the same to 1st lv kobolds is irrelevant because we are not expected to face them at this juncture?
Any kobolds you face at level 25 should be classified as minions (unless they are the supreme champion of all kobolds, maybe).
It doesn't make sense to drop a normal/elite/solo monster on PCs that are 20 levels higher. That guy is just a minion now.
We need to stop thinking of monsters as absolute blocks of stats. Their numbers (especially HPs) are relative to the level of the PCs.
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