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SeraphimDominion wrote:

Was it really necessary to be such a jerk in your reply?

I'm sorry you feel that way, but I don't agree. I went out of my way to be polite if not exactly courteous, but neither was he courteous with what I felt was a condescending remark like "it's that simple, really". I'm not sure that you're in a position to judge me, but regardless, I wish that to move forward from here with posts that are helpful, not just snappy one-liners and blanket statements.

Batshido wrote:

Remember, Ref Def isn't just a measure of your physical dodging ability, just like AC wasn't in earlier editions. Sometimes its an amount of personal luck, sometimes there are in-game circumstances that cause a blow to miss, other times your enemy just aims wide left. It doesn't all have to be explained by the character that got missed.

I could see that there are many factors that would contribute to the sum total of a Reflex defense, and luck may be part of that, but I don't see that it is specifically relevant to Intelligence attribute or the game mechanics we're talking about.

Common Sense doesn't necessarily fall into the realm of Wisdom. It's about awareness, so a character with a high Wis would probably see it first, but they might not understand what they're looking at. High Int allows the character to mentally connect "thrown object" and "grenade," then make the transition to "need cover NOW" before those of lesser intellect.

Unlike some other people, I won't say "No, Wisdom IS common sense, you're wrong". I will be more courteous and say that the PHB 4E specifically states that "Wisdom (Wis) measures your common sense, perception..." Also, one definition of "common sense" is "sound and prudent judgment based on a simple perception of the situation or facts". But that's not all, the PHB 4E then specifically states that "You use your Wisdom score to notice details, sense danger.."

Between those points, I'd confidently state that the perception of a grenade as a danger is most attributable to common sense which is mostly part of Wisdom, and that acting quickly upon that is most attributable to Dexterity. Therefore, I assume most people will agree that Wis and Dex is the *most* appropriate attribute in this particular example of a Reflex Defense to avoid a grenade, as neither high reasoning power nor a doctorate in military weapon is used to think "oh boy, I better get away from this grenade" and act quickly upon that thought.

ArtyToo wrote:

As I understand it, in 4E, a Reflex defense uses your Dexterity modifier... or your Intelligence modifier, whichever is higher.

While I like the flexibility of this mechanic, how does it work for character development fluff?

I'm part of the crew that favors the idea that an intelligent character is able to predict how the enemy will attack, and adjust accordingly. The common response to this is that, in the real world, your usual intelligent nerd is hardly an expert at dodging blows in combat.

But the thing is - the PCs aren't average joes. They are, in fact, heroes - trained adventurers who have seen their share of danger. Even those starting out are ones who have mastered the way of the blade or the magical arts, and thus have the combat training to use their quick thinking to avoid the enemy. (This is right in line with JohnSnow's examples - intelligence alone doesn't mean you are good at predicting enemies in combat, but being an intelligent adventurer does.)

Having a Dex of 8 does make you clumsy - it means you are terrible at acrobatics, stealth, etc. It means if you pick up a rock and throw it, you are likely to miss. But if you have a low Dex and a high Int, you have gotten used to your years of clumsiness, and clearly learned to adjust in combat accordingly.

Now, I admit it might not be a perfect answer. But it definitely does seem realistic enough for a game system, and no worse than many other idiosyncrasies common in D&D.

If you do decide against it, I highly recommend against simply removing the ability to add Int to AC/Reflex. Instead, I would recommend something like Kainsan suggests, where you rearrange the ability scores to try and make a spread that fits more with what you find realistic.