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Switch to Forum Live View Clumsy but genius PC = high Reflex defense
5 years ago  ::  Jun 03, 2008 - 9:41AM #1
ArtyToo
Date Joined: May 25, 2004
Posts: 62
As I understand it, in 4E, a Reflex defense uses your Dexterity modifier... or your Intelligence modifier, whichever is higher.

While I like the flexibility of this mechanic, how does it work for character development fluff?

I guess the reasoning is an intelligent character can better predict an incoming attack. But Intelligence is defined as learning and reasoning. It is the Wisdom fluff that mentions perception and sensing danger. Sounds like Int is mostly booksmarts, and Wis (especially with a combination of Dex) is more about thinking fast on your feet. But Will Defense is founded on Wis or Cha, so Wis was already "taken". That left Intelligence, even though it doesn't contribute much to Reflex.

This leads to weird inconsistencies. A wizard with 18 Int and 8 Dex (=bad hand-eye coordiation, poor agility, slow reflexes and bad sense of balance) has a great Reflex. A different character of the same level with 16 Int and 16 Dex has a worse base Reflex (there is no averaging or synergy, just take the higher stat).

(P.S. Does anyone else feel that this is a case of over-simplification and may house-rule this one?)

So how can pure 4E mechanics (without house-ruling) emulate the bumbling genius professor type?

Or maybe I missed the boat? Maybe 4E is not about flawed character archetypes with one or two shortcomings, but heroic types who are always well-rounded and average/normal at the very worst?
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5 years ago  ::  Jun 03, 2008 - 9:52AM #2
Undrhil
  • Dragon Slayer
Date Joined: Jan 2, 2007
Posts: 4,311

ArtyToo wrote:

heroic types who are always well-rounded and average/normal at the very worst?


This. Hence, "dumbed-down" or "MMO"-style.

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5 years ago  ::  Jun 03, 2008 - 10:03AM #3
Titanium_Dragon
Date Joined: Sep 26, 2005
Posts: 7,765
Dexterity is about fast reflexes.

Intelligence is about thinking quickly.

Both help you avoid bad stuff.

Simple as that, really.
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5 years ago  ::  Jun 03, 2008 - 10:07AM #4
Omoikane
Date Joined: Sep 29, 2003
Posts: 27
I agree with Undrhil.. it's a dumbed-down MMO feeling that has nothing to do with good roleplaying.
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5 years ago  ::  Jun 03, 2008 - 10:20AM #5
Ics
Date Joined: Mar 14, 2006
Posts: 12

ArtyToo wrote:

But Will Defense is founded on Wis or Dex, so Wis was already "taken".


Just a slight quibble here, but Will is Wis or Cha, not Dex.

ArtyToo wrote:

A wizard with 18 Int and 8 Dex (=bad hand-eye coordiation, poor agility, slow reflexes and bad sense of balance) has a great Reflex. A rogue of the same level with 16 Int and 16 Dex has a worse Reflex (there is no averaging or synergy, just take the higher stat).


Ok, admittedly getting a little nit-picky here, but the Rogue gets a +2 to Reflex and the Wizard doesn't; thus, the Wizard has a 14 Reflex and the Rogue has a 15.

ArtyToo wrote:

So how can pure 4E mechanics (without house-ruling) emulate the bumbling genius professor type?


Don't worry, a 14 Reflex isnt that good, you'll still get hit enough to feel like you're bumbling :P

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5 years ago  ::  Jun 03, 2008 - 10:21AM #6
Kainsin
Date Joined: Sep 3, 2002
Posts: 217
I think you make a valid point, would it make more sense to have your defenses work this way:

AC and Reflex modifier = Highest of Dex and Wis
Fortitude modifier = Highest of Str and Con
Will modifier = Highest of Int and Cha
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5 years ago  ::  Jun 03, 2008 - 10:25AM #7
Frosty_Flake
Date Joined: Sep 19, 2007
Posts: 39

ArtyToo wrote:

So how can pure 4E mechanics (without house-ruling) emulate the bumbling genius professor type?


Possibly with low intelligence but a high number of trained skills? Since your Int score no longer effects your number of skills, that is.

I do think it is odd that Wisdom wasn't used for Reflex and Intelligence for Willpower, though... Int, the raw power of the mind, used to centre oneself or rationally overcome illusions etc.

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5 years ago  ::  Jun 03, 2008 - 10:27AM #8
Lord_Tirian
Date Joined: Dec 21, 2005
Posts: 524
Look here and here. In this order.

Cheers, LT.
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5 years ago  ::  Jun 03, 2008 - 10:33AM #9
Batshido
Date Joined: Nov 4, 2006
Posts: 5,419
"Clumsy" could mean falling down or stumbling at all the right moments to avoid being hit with opposing attacks. Think Jar Jar/Charlie Chaplin.

As Intelligence is partially a measure of your ability to process information quickly, it makes sense that smart characters are going to be better at avoiding getting hit; not necessarily by dodging, but by utilizing their surroundings, avoiding situations where attacks would be likely and recognizing signs of trouble before others would.

It's one of those rules (kind of like multiclassing's effect on saves in 3E) that can go one of two ways; you either want to rationalize it and can, or you don't and will find ways not to. Obviously, the OP is one of the second group.
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5 years ago  ::  Jun 03, 2008 - 10:35AM #10
Omoikane
Date Joined: Sep 29, 2003
Posts: 27
Tirian.. that comic was truly epic...

but didn't really account for any sort of realism :P

Still.. thanks for giving me something to laugh at :D
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