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4 years ago ::
Aug 16, 2009 - 7:23PM
#41
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Date Joined:
Oct 10, 2007
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And that feat still doesn't allow Eldritch Strike.
As written, the only way to get that ability is to be a human, because Eldritch Blast and your pact's at-will come from "class features", and thus cannot be retrained.[/quote]
Yes, this is exceedingly frustrating.[/quote]
And rather ironic considering the card that Eldritch Strike first appeared on was bundled with a tiefling warlock.
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4 years ago ::
Aug 16, 2009 - 8:57PM
#42
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Date Joined:
Oct 24, 2008
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Except that non-human warlocks don't get choose their at-wills. Twofold pact finally lets them choose one.
If all wizards were forced to take magic missile and then orb wizards were locked into taking thunderwave, staff wizards locked into taking ray of frost and wand wizards locked into taking scorching burst THEN you could expect a similar wizard feat.
So not only does the Twofold Pact give you an extra at will, but you also get the pact boon as well.
That would be like a wizard getting both Thunderwave and the Orb ability, Ray of frost and the Staff ability and Scorching burst and the wand ability.
I think some people are vastly over-estimating the over powered ability of having an extra at-will.
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4 years ago ::
Aug 16, 2009 - 9:00PM
#43
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So not only does the Twofold Pact give you an extra at will, but you also get the pact boon as well.
That would be like a wizard getting both Thunderwave and the Orb ability, Ray of frost and the Staff ability and Scorching burst and the wand ability.
I think some people are vastly over-estimating the over powered ability of having an extra at-will.
The power of two-fold pact is only evident when you really look at Warlock powers. It's not the same as it would be for any other class. Trust me.
The wizard argument isn't even a good one, because those abilities are useful much more often than a warlock's secondary at-will is useful.
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4 years ago ::
Aug 16, 2009 - 9:36PM
#44
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Date Joined:
Oct 24, 2008
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The power of two-fold pact is only evident when you really look at Warlock powers. It's not the same as it would be for any other class. Trust me.
The wizard argument isn't even a good one, because those abilities are useful much more often than a warlock's secondary at-will is useful.
Thousands would trust you, but I don't. :P
Two-fold pact gives you an at will and a pact boon.
All I'm asking for is an extra at will. If it is so over powered, then why can I spend 680gp to get a Master's wand of "X" (where X = a Wizard at-will) that I can use once per encounter without counting against my daily magic item usage?
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4 years ago ::
Aug 16, 2009 - 9:37PM
#45
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Thousands would trust you, but I don't. :P
Two-fold pact gives you an at will and a pact boon.
All I'm asking for is an extra at will. If it is so over powered, then why can I spend 680gp to get a Master's wand of "X" (where X = a Wizard at-will) that I can use once per encounter without counting against my daily magic item usage?
Because that's once per encounter. I could see a feat that does that. But not what you're describing, and certainly not before epic tier.
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4 years ago ::
Aug 16, 2009 - 9:40PM
#46
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So not only does the Twofold Pact give you an extra at will, but you also get the pact boon as well.
That would be like a wizard getting both Thunderwave and the Orb ability, Ray of frost and the Staff ability and Scorching burst and the wand ability.
I think some people are vastly over-estimating the over powered ability of having an extra at-will.
Yes, they get the pact boon. But they have to choose which pact to receive when an enemy drops. Further, the pact boons in general are not as useful as the abilities conferred by the wizard implements.
So, in this increasingly useless analogy, wizards would get 1 of the implement abilities each encounter, not all of them.
How "overpowered" a third at-will is depends on your class. Controllers greatly benefit. Strikers could usually care less (rangers are the obvious example here). But every player has the option to build a character with a third at-will and a +2 in their primary stat. I'm not seeing the need for a new feat. If you want a third at-will, play a human.
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4 years ago ::
Aug 16, 2009 - 10:44PM
#47
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Yes, they get the pact boon. But they have to choose which pact to receive when an enemy drops. Further, the pact boons in general are not as useful as the abilities conferred by the wizard implements.
So, in this increasingly useless analogy, wizards would get 1 of the implement abilities each encounter, not all of them.
How "overpowered" a third at-will is depends on your class. Controllers greatly benefit. Strikers could usually care less (rangers are the obvious example here). But every player has the option to build a character with a third at-will and a +2 in their primary stat. I'm not seeing the need for a new feat. If you want a third at-will, play a human.
Actually... this is a good point. Not for the argument for or against at-wills, but against playing most other races for any non-roleplay reason. A hell of a lot of racial can be emulated by powers or items etc. I chose to play an Eladrin Warlock because I like the idea of a crazy dark side of nature magic killing machine that teleports around. The racial background and Fey Step helped me chose Eladrin.
In the end however, it would have been a better choice to play a Human. I could have taken the stat bonus to what I needed instead of a blind bonus to Int and Dex, and Warlocks get a teleport at-will utility (since I'm stacking +teleport range items, Fey Step will get used much less), and still gotten an extra at-will! In the end my current racial will just be a few more square once a day, about as useful as Creeping Gatevine.
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4 years ago ::
Aug 17, 2009 - 6:34AM
#48
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- Hero Artisan Gold Medalist
Date Joined:
Jun 14, 2007
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You're basing your argument on Eldritch Strike??? First off, most people have house-ruled that warlocks can pick Eldritch Strike instead of Eldritch Blast at character creation. And even if your group hasn't done that, the warlock rules just say which at-wills you have to take at level 1; there's nothing anywhere telling you that you can't retrain them to something else the next time you gain a level.
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4 years ago ::
Aug 17, 2009 - 8:04AM
#49
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Date Joined:
May 19, 2009
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I think some people are vastly over-estimating the over powered ability of having an extra at-will.
I fully agree with this statement and have a question related to this. Playing D&D going from basic through 4th edition, I have historically played humans for the majority of my characters. I have played just about every race but 10 if not 20 to 1 I play humans. I have recently joined the 4th edition revolution and for the most part I like 4th it has been a lot of fun and seems balanced much better then 3rd ever was. That being said, Is it me or did Humans really get the screw in 4th? I have only played two toons (fighter and a wizzy) so far in 4th Each time I attempt to build my toons as a human first and find that I am very disappointed. The benefits that a human gets seems very weak compared to other races.
Human benefits: +1 NADs, +1 feat, +1 at-will from your class, +2 to one stat
The extra at will for the wizzy was ok but really I hardly ever used it. Between encounter, dailies and the standard 2 at-wills I didn’t find myself in a situation where I was saying, “Wow I wish I had that other at-will power” unless you are looking at paragon MC the extra at will just seems to suck.
The best benefit of a human is the extra feat, which I really like but it seems to be the only value over all.
+1 NADs is nice but nothing great compared to other races, most races have bonuses to one or more NADs.
+2 to one stat kinda sucks, why in the world they shorted humans here I do not understand. I believe humans are the ONLY race with one stat bonus.
I really like playing humans but I don’t like feeling like I am gimping my toons because of it. Is it just me or do Humans seem to really, really suck in 4th?
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4 years ago ::
Aug 17, 2009 - 8:11AM
#50
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Date Joined:
Apr 16, 2009
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Guys, it's very simple. Which at-will powers you choose is part of what defines your character, just like which encounter, daily, and utility powers you choose is part of what defines your character. A single feat for another at-will would be a must-take for most characters, and would ultimately just make everyone's characters look that much more alike.
Except that they keep adding at-wills in the power books. In fact, of all the classes I've seen so far I think they all have at least 2 at-wills added in the power books. So, it's not like the options are getting any smaller. In fact, the only reason that I can see for a 2 at-will limit was when the game was first released because there were so few at-will options.
Not only that, but you're arguing that adding a feat decreases character variability when, by the very nature of adding another choice means that there is more potential for variation...especially when you consider that there are still more at-will choices than the feat would allow to be chosen.
While others may argue that "well then you should have a feat for shape shifting" or something inherent to a race that's a very different story. Those racial abilities are something that only that race can do. At-wills are something that anyone from that class can perform (and Half-elves not of that class with a bit more effort). They are the easiest maneuvers for that class, requiring so little effort that the class can perform it whenever they want, no rest required, repeatedly.
Learning another easy maneuver, effectively specializing your character for adaptability, is nowhere near akin to learning to shoot fire from your mouth or how to teleport.
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