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Sep 20, 2009 -- 2:11PM, Cerois wrote:

Sep 20, 2009 -- 1:26PM, PBN wrote:

@Cerois: I may be missing something - but I think you're confusing effective with optimal.  +2 stats works out to a +1 bonus - that is NOT the difference between effective and not.  In fact, when you add in the racials (such as group insight. light step, etc) it makes a different character - but MORE effective in some circumstances (especially outdoor)

Not really, even a +1 is a HUGE modifier. I understand what your saying and no I don't think that the only issue is the +1 to hit/damage (although again that is a huge modifier), almost all of the race/class combos that are generally regarded as synergistic have the best racial feat/class synergy. While there is racial feats for many class/race combos rarely do they approach the effectiveness of those established synergistic combinations.

It is the entire package that determines what is synergistic not just the attributes, although the attributes are not to be taken lightly.

I am thinking maybe a good idea would be to do attributes as a race class combo, make a list of two attributes for each class and let the player select one from each of the class/race list to add a +2 to.

You're a power gamer, and that's fine, but for us non-power gamers, we can make an effective character in any race/class combination out there.  Our characters will be able to contribute just fine without the ultimate optimal race/class combination.

Sep 20, 2009 -- 7:07PM, Maxperson wrote:

Sep 20, 2009 -- 2:11PM, Cerois wrote:

Sep 20, 2009 -- 1:26PM, PBN wrote:

@Cerois: I may be missing something - but I think you're confusing effective with optimal.  +2 stats works out to a +1 bonus - that is NOT the difference between effective and not.  In fact, when you add in the racials (such as group insight. light step, etc) it makes a different character - but MORE effective in some circumstances (especially outdoor)

Not really, even a +1 is a HUGE modifier. I understand what your saying and no I don't think that the only issue is the +1 to hit/damage (although again that is a huge modifier), almost all of the race/class combos that are generally regarded as synergistic have the best racial feat/class synergy. While there is racial feats for many class/race combos rarely do they approach the effectiveness of those established synergistic combinations.

It is the entire package that determines what is synergistic not just the attributes, although the attributes are not to be taken lightly.

I am thinking maybe a good idea would be to do attributes as a race class combo, make a list of two attributes for each class and let the player select one from each of the class/race list to add a +2 to.

You're a power gamer, and that's fine, but for us non-power gamers, we can make an effective character in any race/class combination out there.  Our characters will be able to contribute just fine without the ultimate optimal race/class combination.

No you can't, you just THINK you can becuase you simply don't know or understand the math. A non-optimized character will be somewhere between 50%-75% as effective as an optimized character that isn't fine nor is it reasonably effective.

Also for the record I am hardly a munchkin, I haven't made a single fully optimized character in 4e, I rarely played humans in 3e, and almost always played humans in 2e. I just think that most builds with a reasonable character concept should fall within 10 or so % of the ideal character balance.

Sep 20, 2009 -- 9:11PM, Cerois wrote:

No you can't, you just THINK you can becuase you simply don't know or understand the math. A non-optimized character will be somewhere between 50%-75% as effective as an optimized character that isn't fine nor is it reasonably effective.

Yes.  Yes I can.  I understand the math just fine.  If I need a 12 to hit something and you can hit it with a 10, so freaking what.  I don't need to get down to a ten or a nine to be able to contribute in a meaningful fashion.  It is an undeniable fact that someone can take any class and combine it with any race and make a character that can contribute just fine.

YOU just have the mistaken opinion that if you don't achieve a certain completely arbitrary number of your choosing, that your character isn't good.  This is not something that holds true with the vast majority of those who play the game.

Also for the record I am hardly a munchkin, I haven't made a single fully optimized character in 4e, I rarely played humans in 3e, and almost always played humans in 2e. I just think that most builds with a reasonable character concept should fall within 10 or so % of the ideal character balance.

I really don't care if you've made a fully optimized 4ed character or not.  You are still a power gamer and are still under the mistaken impression that if you don't optimize to a great degree, you can't be useful.  Feel free to hold that opinion, but don't expect many people here to back you up on it. 

Let me get this straight, the group of you believes that it is reasonable that a character has to sacrifice up to 50% of there effectiveness in order to maintain character concept? Because honestly if that's your position then there is no point in discussing this with you because your on another planet, one where logic and reason are completely foreign concepts.

Sep 20, 2009 -- 10:08PM, Maxperson wrote:

You're looking at it bass ackwards.  They aren't sacrificing a single thing.  You are increasing your effectiveness BEYOND what is required.  Anything beyond the base line is a bonus that is completely optional.  No one should ever feel obligated to follow YOUR PERSONAL PREFERENCE.

So its seriously your position that the average player doesn't care about the effectiveness of there character beyond a bare minimum of competency? If so lets throw up a poll about it and see what the average player says on the issue. Maybe I'm way off but I would bet a great deal of money that your the one badly misreading the average gamer.

I am in no way saying that the average gamer wants to sit down, run the numbers, and munchkin to the max. But if given a choice between a barely competent character and a character better then barely competent they will chose that thier charcter - while remaining in concept - is better then barely competent.